Installing OSX on it

Archos Intel based Laptops
Charbax
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Installing OSX on it

Post by Charbax »

You can probably also do that if you want to mess with it: http://i.gizmodo.com/5131264/the-netboo ... -wired-for
kb
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by kb »

Charbax wrote:You can probably also do that if you want to mess with it: http://i.gizmodo.com/5131264/the-netboo ... -wired-for
...if you don't mind doing something unlawful ;)
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by Charbax »

It depends where you are. In Russia it's not illegal. Especially if you buy a copy of OSX in a box.

Why should Apple be allowed to decide which hardware can run its OS? That's just stupid.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by Archos5Fan »

You may have answered your own question.

"Why should Apple be allowed to decide which hardware can run its OS?"

The key word is "its". It's Apple's OS. It's Microsoft's OS. We just purchase a license to use it. It's been that way for decades.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by Charbax »

Archos5Fan wrote:You may have answered your own question.

"Why should Apple be allowed to decide which hardware can run its OS?"

The key word is "its". It's Apple's OS. It's Microsoft's OS. We just purchase a license to use it. It's been that way for decades.
That practice is actually illegal in western countries.

You cannot decide which Mp3 player your music can play on, just as you should not be allowed to decide which netbook your OS can run on.

That is anti-competitive behavior, that kind of behavior is regulated against in civilized societies.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by kb »

Charbax wrote: You cannot decide which Mp3 player your music can play on, just as you should not be allowed to decide which netbook your OS can run on.
On the contrary, the owner of the rights in the MP3 content is perfectly at liberty to decide what MP3 player his material will play on. He is perfectly at liberty to put DRM or whatever in place to ensure that this is so.

It may not be very sound business practice (although it appears to work for Audible), but it's certainly lawful, and it's certainly unlawful to try to circumvent it.

If I own a chair, I get to decide who sits on it. If I sell the chair to you on the understanding that nobody but you will sit in it, and you allow other people to sit in it, you are in breach of contract. If you don't like that restriction on your freedom, you buy a chair from somebody else. Of course, it might cost you a bit more.

I'm not a big fan of OSX, but I doubt that it was a cheap product to produce and support. It is sold at a price that reflects the fact that it will increase sales revenues from Apple hardware. Apple _could_ sell it without a hardware restriction, for anybody to run on any hardware. But that would make it more expensive.

I'm as keen to get something for nothing as the next fellow, but to claim that it is unlawful or unethical for Apple to regulate how there software is used is as silly as to claim that the owner of a chair isn't allowed to decide who sits on it. Either, as a society, we accept the notion of private property or we don't. And if we do, we can't just pick and choose which kinds of property we are prepared to acknowledge on the basis of what suits us at the time.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by Charbax »

Well it seems that you are clueless in more ways than just the tech industry.

I suggest you read up on these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_C ... tition_law
kb wrote:Apple _could_ sell it without a hardware restriction, for anybody to run on any hardware. But that would make it more expensive.
The only reason Apple doesn't sell OSX licences to use on other hardware is that that would compete against Apple's own monopoly on hardware that works with their software. Apple is making ginormous profit margins on Macintosh computers. In fact nobody else in the industry is able to make that much money on selling crappy hardware. If Apple started officially selling OSX licences to use on Netbooks, Apple would have to charge $800+ for the OSX licence just to bring it up to Macintosh profit margin standards. This would look completely ridiculous next to for example the Windows XP licence shipped at $32 for Netbooks and Linux being free.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by kb »

Charbax wrote:Well it seems that you are clueless in more than just the tech industry.

I suggest you read up on these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_C ... tition_law
With the greatest respect, I have a law degree from University College London. I don't need you to give me reading suggestions.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by Charbax »

kb wrote:
Charbax wrote:Well it seems that you are clueless in more than just the tech industry.

I suggest you read up on these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_C ... tition_law
With the greatest respect, I have a law degree from University College London. I don't need you to give me reading suggestions.
Well I suggest that you ask for your money back if they told you that Apple's anti-competitive practices were okay.

It's more to do with the EU legal systems being too slow to act on tech matters since tech business paradigms are constantly shifting. So companies like Apple and Microsoft are just taking advantage of the slow legal systems to cram through their monopolistic tactics, and paying whatever fines the legal systems finally charges them after losing those anti trust lawsuits.
kb
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by kb »

Charbax wrote:
kb wrote:
Charbax wrote:Well it seems that you are clueless in more than just the tech industry.

I suggest you read up on these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_C ... tition_law
With the greatest respect, I have a law degree from University College London. I don't need you to give me reading suggestions.
Well I suggest that you ask for your money back if they told you that Apple's anti-competitive practices were okay.

It's more to do with the EU legal systems being too slow to act on tech matters since tech business paradigms are constantly shifting. So companies like Apple and Microsoft are just taking advantage of the slow legal systems to cram through their monopolistic tactics, and paying whatever fines the legal systems finally charges them after losing those anti trust lawsuits.
The problem is that the legislature -- EU or elsewhere -- has to strike a balance between respect for property rights and the need to maintain an environment of reasonably free trade. These two requirements are incompatible to some extent, which is unfortunate.

The big problem here is that everybody seems to be happy about forcing competition on the likes of Microsoft and Apple (or Shell and BP, or Tesco and Sainsburys, more likely). But if you legislate for that, you have to be prepared for the fact that it will have consequences for small business and individuals as well. It's the nature of a mature legal system that you can't just apply laws to people you don't like -- that's tyranny, not law. When we imported the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law, people were a bit surprised to find that it was not just invoked by decent, law-abiding citizens who had a grievance against the state, but by villains and terrorists as well. People seemed to be shocked to discover that when the legal system creates rights, it creates them for people we don't approve of as well as people we do :/

If Apple (or whomever) isn't allowed -- by means of legislation -- to determine who uses its software and for what, then it follows that Acme Software Trading operating out of a shed in the back garden will lose that right as well. And that may well mean that Acme Software Trading goes bust, because it doesn't have the reserves of the Apples and Microsofts of the world.

If we, as a society, are OK with that, then fair enough. But I suspect that many of us are not OK with that.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by strikeback03 »

Much as I can choose whether to follow a posted speed limit or not, I can choose whether to follow an artificial restriction on where I can install OSX. And if I didn't despise Apple I might consider building a Hackintosh.

At least as large an issue to Apple though is their image of stability and "everything just works". Most things can just work because they have very tight control over what needs to work. I would guess Microsoft could make a similar OS if they were to decide it only needed to run on a few select hardware configurations.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by kb »

strikeback03 wrote:Much as I can choose whether to follow a posted speed limit or not, I can choose whether to follow an artificial restriction on where I can install OSX. And if I didn't despise Apple I might consider building a Hackintosh.
Sure, You, or I, can choose to break the law if we wish. We don't live in a police state. It's not like stealing the Crown Jewels, and you're unlikely to get the secret police battering down your front door with rifle-butts.

But it is unlawful, that's my point. I don't care if people cheat -- it's none of my business, and I've cheated myself -- but it bugs me when people try to weasel out of it and claim that it isn't actually unlawful, or it shouldn't be, blah blah blah. It is, and that's that.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by EKIMIKE »

Law Degree from one of Englands most prestigeous institutions Vs. Wikipedia

Law degree hands down. Unless you can track a reference on wiki, it's academically worthless.

Sorry i just had to comment, the situation made me chuckle.

MiKE
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by Jaffar »

I'm located in Bulgaria for the week end after my trip to Chicago and in Bulgaria there is nothing illegal as far as software cracks and hacks are related, MP3 drm breaks or other DVD ripping with macrovision Off; So to inform you from Bulgaria that OSX rocks on the Archos10. :D When I'm back to France on Monday, promise I swap the disk with the Ubuntu one to keep stuff legal. Of course :lol:
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by kb »

Jaffar wrote:I'm located in Bulgaria for the week end after my trip to Chicago and in Bulgaria there is nothing illegal as far as software cracks and hacks are related, MP3 drm breaks or other DVD ripping with macrovision Off; So to inform you from Bulgaria that OSX rocks on the Archos10. :D When I'm back to France on Monday, promise I swap the disk with the Ubuntu one to keep stuff legal. Of course :lol:
Actually, I think that in principle Bulgaria is supposed to respect the IP rights of businesses from other countries. It is a signatory to the WIPO convention, after all. The Blugarian state just can't be bothered to enforce its own laws.

Anyhow, since it runs Ubuntu, who needs OSX? Is Archos going to be selling a Linux model? And if not, why not?
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by Jaffar »

Yes but in Bulgaria (where I'm from) signing papers and other international stuff means nothing in here, still today. Anyway, the Mac OSX was just for testing, I have a macBook already which runs like a charm its OSX, I upgraded my Archos 10 with a 320GB drive and it runs Ubuntu with the Netbook Remix desktop. Archos is not going to release a Linux version (this is what I wanted though, a Linux distro on the laptop) to avoid the 70% Asus eeePC 701 returns, which decided them to go for Windows versions afterall also. But FYI the Archos 10 as many other PCs runs much much better with Ubuntu in my case than with XP. Everyone is saying around the net that Linux missed the market on netbooks last year, to my own opinion it is just due to the stupid closed Xandros by Asus distro that Asus put on the first eeePC. This was much less friendly user for the average supermaket consumer.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by kawiultraman »

Jaffar wrote: avoid the 70% Asus eeePC 701 returns,
You have some kind of credible source for this claim?
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by Charbax »

kawiultraman wrote:
Jaffar wrote: avoid the 70% Asus eeePC 701 returns,
You have some kind of credible source for this claim?
I think he may have mixed up some numbers. But for sure that the Linux netbooks have been returned perhaps 700% more than Windows XP netbooks. That might be what he meant.

Although I agree that Netbooks and OLPC have been totally revolutionary for the mass market adoption of Linux for consumer oriented computers. Even though Asus and Acer's initial Linux implementations were not very good.

The type of way I would see it useful for Archos to use Linux on laptops would be:

1. To sell a lower cost version, for example using just 8GB SSD and SDHC ports like the cheapest Acer Aspire One. This could provide a lower cost Archos 10 that could be sold at around $100 cheaper. And cost is the major decision factor in consumers choice in the netbook mass market. The Linux geeks at Archos could customize a very nice light but cool Ubuntu or other Linux distribution with nice easy to use default repository to add and remove applications. An $250 version of a Linux Archos 10 could sell like pancakes, also using built-in HSDPA. That would require though for Archos to find an ODM that can provide that 8GB custom Linux version of the laptop. That is not sure the manufacturer will do it that easily.

2. Archos should use Ubuntu or Android on a future Archos 10 ARM Cortex version at $199. Again just a few GB SSD for the OS and SDHC memory expansion. I think perhaps the perfect memory expansion system could perhaps be to have the $99 basic ARM Linux laptop ship with an empty 2.5" hard disk bay. Thus if the user wants to put any 2.5" hard drive in it to expand built-in storage, they can. At least that's what I would hope Archos could do in the next few months for a next version of a Laptop initiative. This time using Archos own R&D and know-how to make a very revolutionary laptop technology. Also tapping into the upcoming Ubuntu for ARM or just building on existing Debian for ARM, Android for ARM or Angstrom Linux for ARM devices.

The advantages of using ARM Cortex in a laptop are multiple. The advantage is not only price, also you more than double the battery life, you lower the weight and size, you avoid being restricted by Intel and Microsoft's imposed spec limitations on netbooks, you get the liberty to innovate for real, you can create a truly innovative product that others will copy instead of copying from others. Though ARM Linux laptops are not ready for the mass market just yet as far as I know. It'll take a few more month. All that I think that they need is running a fully multi-tabbed Chrome or Firefox browser smoothly on ARM linux then that should do most of the trick.
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by kb »

kawiultraman wrote:
Jaffar wrote: avoid the 70% Asus eeePC 701 returns,
You have some kind of credible source for this claim?
It doesn't sound a completely unreasonable figure, if you look at the comments on the various Acer/Asus forums. Loads of people have the Linux versions of these machines -- purchased primarily on the basis of cost -- and are unhappy. Those folks with hard-disk models often install Windows on them; with SD models that isn't really practicable.

The problem (as I see it) is that Acer and Asus have dumbed-down the Linux installation to make it manageable for inexperienced users. The result is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get machine -- it's very difficult for a non-geek user to install new software, and there's a good chance it won't work anyway because of quirks in the Linux implementation. So, for most people, the machines does exactly what it is advertised as doing -- but no more than that. You can use a Web browser, a rather ugly, proprietary e-mail client, OpenOffice (which is actually quite usable), and a few games.

Windows users are used to being able to install whatever they like, and have a fair chance of getting it to work. So newcomers to Linux netbooks are annoyed to find they can't do that without at least some background reading. Many newcomers actually try to install Windows apps on their Linux netbooks and get annoyed when they don't work.

For parents of schoolkids (like me) these 8Gb SSD Linux netbooks are great. They are cheap, and kids can't easily break them by casually clicking around. You need to know how to use a command line to break it. And I don't want my kids installing stupid Windows games on their schoolwork machines. They are more-or-less immune to viruses and other nasties, don't break if you drop them, need zero maintenance, and did I mention cheap? Many of my friends and colleagues have bought these things for their kids.

But for adults who are used to Windows, Xandros/Linpus is a painful and unrewarding experience. If you know no Linux, you're limited to the software provided by the vendor, and if you know Linux a bit, you'll be frustrated by how little the implementation is like your desktop version. If you know Linux a lot, then it's irrelevant anyway -- you'll just install or configure as suits you. But you can do that with a Windows netbook by removing Windows :)

And Microsoft's aggressive pricing for XP has really made it difficult to make an economic argument for selling a Linux version.

Linux on a netbook was a nice idea, but I can see why vendors are increasingly moving away from it. Sad for us geeks, of course, because we have to pay the hidden cost of Windows even if we remove it straight away :(
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Re: Installing OSX on it

Post by Archos5Fan »

I already have an XP license. If the netbook could be sold without XP (or any software) and sell for $100USD less retail, then the 10 would then be attractively priced (even in the USA!).
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