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Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:08 pm
by Charbax
You are obviously clueless about how markets work and how people buy. If the Archos GPS didn't sell much yet that's basically cause its firmware is not available for the Archos 5 yet and for some distribution reasons.

I just told you cheaper and lower cost laptops are going to generate over 20 billion dollars in sales this year out of nothing a year ago and for you that means there is no demand for it.

12 of the top-20 most selling consumer electronics products on Amazon.com are such cheaper and lower power laptops. In fact the top-6 products in the PC category are all such cheaper and lower power laptops: http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/pc

So you obviously know nothing of this industry if you can keep saying that the demand is not there.

The Archos GPS unit is still the best and cheapest solution for GPS for a whole bunch of people, it's still the only one that lets you take with you your internet media tablet, have it charge in the car and not have to hide a crappy GPS unit under your seat or in the glove compartment everytime you park your car. The Archos you simply take it off the GPS unit and put it in our pocket, you would do that anyways with it. So as soon as the firmware is ready for the Archos 5, you can be sure that it will sell.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:20 pm
by Idire
The best and cheapest GPS units you can get are the small TomTom ones you can get which cost about £50 and just work, they have no problems and dont require the presence of an Archos to work.

Archos GPS hasnt been bought because there was already a better product out there. Same goes for this laptop if they release it, it already exists from reputable companies like Advent etc, so why buy from a noname company like Archos?

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:32 pm
by kb
Charbax wrote:You are obviously clueless about how markets work and how people buy.
Well, anybody who knows me will tell you that I'm never going to win the fat-brain of the year contest. I've been known to forget my kid's names. I once screwed my hand to the wall putting up a shelf.

But, though I freely admit to being a bear of little brain, I reckon I've got enough smarts to realize that ``I'm right because I'm very clever and you're very stupid'' isn't, on it's own, an argument-winner, even if it happens to be true. I reckon most other people are, too.

And that means that if you want to convince me, or anybody else, that people will buy an Archos netbook in preference to another brand, if they are about equal in price and specification, you're going to have to provide some actual reasoning to back up that assertion. People might have umpty-tumpty millions of dollars waiting to spend on netbooks, but what evidence do you have that they will spend it on Archos netbooks, and not Asus, Acer, or MSI?

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:35 pm
by Charbax
Archos is not noname. Archos makes the best Internet Media Tablets in the world. Of course if you cannot see a usage for you of an Internet Media Tablet, then no need to buy an Archos with GPS.

But for sure the number of people looking for a high quality screen high end GPS unit, many will like getting an Archos with GPS bundle when they see all the features it has compared to established GPS-only products at same screen size and resolutions that aren't much cheaper and which only do GPS well.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:42 pm
by kb
Charbax wrote: But for sure the number of people looking for a high quality screen high end GPS unit, many will like getting an Archos with GPS bundle when they see all the features it has compared to established GPS-only products at same screen size and resolutions that aren't much cheaper and which only do GPS well.
If that's true, why has it not actually happened? The GPS add-on for the x05s has been around for a year, and I don't think they've sold a single one in the UK. As I said, UK retailers aren't even stocking the GPS any more.

You're arguing in the very teeth of the evidence.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:43 pm
by Charbax
kb wrote:but what evidence do you have
I just gave you a whole bunch of evidence that the cheaper lower power laptop segment is exploding.

Anyways, what's the use debating with people like you. You don't want to understand that all Intel Atom based netbooks are the same, all basically work the same way, have the same components and all basically are manufactured in the same area in China around Shenzhen. What's the point. If you want to remain clueless, you can stay that way.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:46 pm
by Charbax
kb wrote:The GPS add-on for the x05s has been around for a year
It has not. It has been out for about 6 months, 3 months of which were while Archos 605 WiFi sales were slowing down while people were waiting for the upcoming Archos 5 and 3 of which has been while the new Archos 5 generation does not yet support the accessory in its firmware.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:59 pm
by kb
Charbax wrote:
kb wrote:but what evidence do you have
I just gave you a whole bunch of evidence that the cheaper lower power laptop segment is exploding.

Anyways, what's the use debating with people like you. You don't want to understand that all Intel Atom based netbooks are the same, all basically work the same way, have the same components and all basically are manufactured in the same area in China around Shenzhen. What's the point. If you want to remain clueless, you can stay that way.
You haven't produced any evidence at all. You've merely asserted the same thing with increasing rudeness. This is how my kids argue.

And you haven't given any reasons why, even if the market really is that bouyant, people would buy from Archos in preference to another supplier. The market for inflatable canoes is exploding (no, really). What reason would people have for buying an inflatable canoe because it has `Archos' stamped on it, rather than a manufacturer with a history of creating inflatable canoes? Why should the situation with netbooks be any different to that? Archos has no experience or reputation in that area either. The fact that you can produce an X for sale does not by itself mean that people will buy it, even if they really want an X. The only time that works as a marketing strategy is when demand for X's way outstrips supply. Or if nobody else sells an X.

For example, I have a Chinese road-legal quadbike, imported direct from the works in China. People will buy Chinese road legal quadbikes in the UK because nobody else is selling them. Nobody, and I mean nobody, buys a Chinese quadbike for farm use -- farmers buy from Honda and Yamaha because they have a reputation, and a network of service agents.

There are dozens of Chinese electronics manufacturers who now sell direct to the EU. And yet people still mostly go to established manufacturers to buy their stuff, and mostly to those that sell on the High Street. There are good reasons for that.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:11 pm
by kawiultraman
kb wrote: And you haven't given any reasons why, even if the market really is that bouyant, people would buy from Archos in preference to another supplier.
That's the million dollar question. When people complain about the 5 and the 7 and their poor quality control and terrible customer support, the fanboy retort usually is "Well, who else can you buy a PMP like this from?"

That same mentality isn't going to fly in the netbook space. I buy PMPs from Archos, because I essentially have to. And I think they use that as an excuse for some of their shenanigans, they know they have a captive customer base and use that to their advantage to string customers along and saddle them with untested beta crapware.

Would I buy a netbook from Archos? No, absolutely not.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:13 pm
by Charbax
You remain clueless. Go play with your kids.

Most people never really heard of Akoya in Germany, still it's the most selling netbook there. Most people never heard of Asus in France, still it's the most selling netbook there. No-one ever heard of the Advent brand nor did they know that Samsung made laptops in the UK, still people buy those.

Top-selling netbook is Acer, that is a Chinese/Taiwanese brand selling directly to consumers cause they can cut prices and maximize profit margins by cutting the intermediaries. But that does not mean Acer and other manufacturers like it need to take 100% of the exploding cheaper and lower power laptop market. To be more precise, Acer is a Taipei laptop designer manufacturing in China by one of the top manufacturers thus it may very well be by the same manufacturer that represents Lenovo or Hasee which is the one making the Archos 10 laptop design and manufacturing.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:16 pm
by Idire
kawiultraman wrote:Would I buy a netbook from Archos? No, absolutely not.
Agreed. Archos have a good reputation for innovation, but an awful one for customer service / reliability and well engineered products

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:14 pm
by sdm197
Charbax wrote: Most people never really heard of Akoya in Germany, still it's the most selling netbook there. Most people never heard of Asus in France, still it's the most selling netbook there. No-one ever heard of the Advent brand nor did they know that Samsung made laptops in the UK, still people buy those.

Top-selling netbook is Acer, that is a Chinese/Taiwanese brand selling directly to consumers cause they can cut prices and maximize profit margins by cutting the intermediaries. But that does not mean Acer and other manufacturers like it need to take 100% of the exploding cheaper and lower power laptop market. To be more precise, Acer is a Taipei laptop designer manufacturing in China by one of the top manufacturers thus it may very well be by the same manufacturer that represents Lenovo or Hasee which is the one making the Archos 10 laptop design and manufacturing.
He has a valid point Boys and Girls, most people in this segment wont give a damn what name is on it. I agree Archos does not have a pedigree in this area, but it does not need to.

More and more we see that people buy on price and spec alone, nothing else. This is of course a shame, but look at what the supermarkets have done to all the specialist suppliers like Fishmongers, grocers, bakers, people are basically lazy (Me Included) and will get it all in Tesco because its easier. These netbooks are so inexpensive they won't care about the name on it, if I asked my girlfriend to name some computer manufacturers she might name Dell or HP she would not have a clue about ASUS, Acer, Akoya, MSI etc.

This is the society we live in unfortunately, a throw away one where only a select bunch of people (Us Here) actually care about what we are purchasing, HiFi buffs are discerning too. Its all very sad but true, lots of people don't care any more about badges or even if its better technology, providing its cheap its OK.

Regards

Dis illusioned of the UK (AKA SDM197)

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:30 pm
by Charbax
Here are the top factors consumer consider when buying one of these new cheaper and lower power laptops which are a whole new way to realize Moore's Law:

30% : Price
20% : Size of the screen and keyboard
20% : Word of Mouth
10% : Hardware specification details
5% : Color
5% : Feeling, weight
4% : Brand recognition
3% : Easy to use Operating System
2% : Online Reviews
1% : Design

Previously before OLPC, computer manufacturers under the total control of Intel and Microsoft would add features and increase power each 18 months to try to keep the same high prices and high power consumption of most of the most popular laptops. Now the 100+ billion dollar Laptop industry is being totally revolutionized. Consumers are finding out that the price and the power consumption are the most important factors.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:09 pm
by kb
sdm197 wrote:
Charbax wrote: Most people never really heard of Akoya in Germany, still it's the most selling netbook there. Most people never heard of Asus in France, still it's the most selling netbook there. No-one ever heard of the Advent brand nor did they know that Samsung made laptops in the UK, still people buy those.

Top-selling netbook is Acer, that is a Chinese/Taiwanese brand selling directly to consumers cause they can cut prices and maximize profit margins by cutting the intermediaries. But that does not mean Acer and other manufacturers like it need to take 100% of the exploding cheaper and lower power laptop market. To be more precise, Acer is a Taipei laptop designer manufacturing in China by one of the top manufacturers thus it may very well be by the same manufacturer that represents Lenovo or Hasee which is the one making the Archos 10 laptop design and manufacturing.
He has a valid point Boys and Girls, most people in this segment wont give a damn what name is on it. I agree Archos does not have a pedigree in this area, but it does not need to.

More and more we see that people buy on price and spec alone, nothing else.
I'm not sure that's really the point. The majority of people don't buy direct from manufacturers, they buy from retailers. In the UK at least, over-the-counter sales still account for the vast majority of consumer goods purchased, even electronic stuff.

In the UK, if you go to the laptop counter in, say, Comet you'll likely be presented with netbooks from two vendors. It's pretty hard to choose between them on any grounds, the prices and specs being so similar. Arguably, if Archos puts its product on the display counter next to Asus and Acer, the sales may split 33% to each rather 50% to each -- it may well be a coin-tossing decision for the consumer (assuming you can get a three-sided coin).

BUT -- a manufacturer has to convince the retail chains to give its products shelf space. And retailers are, perhaps, slightly more discerning than consumers. You can't buy Hasee laptops from retail outlets in the UK, because retailers are conservative, and will stick with known brands and manufacturers unless there's a compelling reason the think they'll make money. UK retailers aren't hugely keen on the Archos brand, even though it has an established position in the PMP market. I note that Argos isn't selling Archos series 5's yet -- they're still selling 605s at inflated prices. It takes a lot to make a big retail chain adopt a new product from a manufacturer with no reputation in that area. That's why, as I said before, you can't buy an Archos GPS from any UK retailer (so far as I know). It's why there's only one place in the whole of the UK you can buy a Cowon anything over the counter.

What's more, the retail chains will be bargaining hard with suppliers to get the best prices, and Asus is not going to be keen to share shelf space with a competitor. Asus (and Acer) make other laptops which also sell well, and a retailer is going to have take the hit on prices of all those other products if it can't argue as good a deal from its established suppliers.

Now, I concede that this situation would be different if people in general bought stuff direct from manufacturers, or even from on-line wholesalers. But, in the UK at least, that's not at all where the bulk of the business is.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:22 pm
by sdm197
kb wrote:
BUT -- a manufacturer has to convince the retail chains to give its products shelf space. And retailers are, perhaps, slightly more discerning than consumers. You can't buy Hasee laptops from retail outlets in the UK, because retailers are conservative, and will stick with known brands and manufacturers unless there's a compelling reason the think they'll make money. UK retailers aren't hugely keen on the Archos brand, even though it has an established position in the PMP market. I note that Argos isn't selling Archos series 5's yet -- they're still selling 605s at inflated prices.
Hi,

Hasee are probably already selling into the UK not under their own name though, they are the second biggest OEM after Lenovo in China.

Argos- the only reason that the 5 and 7 are not in the catalogue is because the last catalogue came out before the 5 and 7 were released, I know for a fact that the 5,7 and DVR will be represented in the new catalogue due this month. You are not allowed to be in the Argos catalogue unless they have stock when the catalogue goes live.

Retailers will consider anything they can sell and make money on, even if the product is not as good, if it has a higher profit margin they will possibly take it. However not all retailers work in this way, some are very difficult to get into such as M&S, John Lewis to name two. The problem that Archos may have is that they may not be able to offer high enough profit margin as they are not making these themselves, only time will tell.

I can see where you are coming from, but at the end of the day the consumer is king, if they buy it retailers will stock it.

SDM197.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:28 pm
by Charbax
Most retailers already have a connection with Archos, they now who Archos is, most have sold Archos products already let's use the UK as an example: Dabs, Currys, Comet, BT, Digital point, Lord Percy, Pixmania, WeDoDigital, Amazon UK etc. All those have Archos products in store already or they already have.

Obviously kb has no idea what price the Archos 10 is going to be sold at, with which conditions for the retailers, with which options, accessories, 6-cell batteries, HSDPA version, warrantee conditions or whatever. He has no idea what kind of sales people Archos has working for example in the UK to do distribution deals.

Nobody is talking about Hasee cause they are not selling under that brand outside of China. But that is just like Lenovo, Quanta, Foxconn and the other Chinese manufactiring giants, you will never see those brands on products sold in Europe (other than Lenovo) but they do manufacture nearly everything.

Again, this is exactly the same thing happening for Dell and Apple, the only difference being that those giant computer brands have perhaps more say in the design and specifications. But still, even for the industry's biggest brands, not only Philips, the design, engineering, R&D all that is done in China by the manufacturers, cause they know much better then Copertino or Santa Clara or other Silicon Valley lab, the Chinese know much better how to design the things when it comes to building on Intel-provided reference designs. None of the Intel based laptops have specifics, they are basically all different cases, different designs and different brands on basically the same hardware. If you want really original stuff then you have to go Texas Instruments ARM Cortex or other architectures which Archos masters better than anyone else. But just cause Archos is the most original hardware maker, that does not forbid them for also using their well known brand to sell some of the already-made-in-China Intel designs.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:03 pm
by kb
Charbax wrote: Obviously kb has no idea what price the Archos 10 is going to be sold at, with which conditions for the retailers, with which options, accessories, 6-cell batteries, HSDPA version, warrantee conditions or whatever. He has no idea what kind of sales people Archos has working for example in the UK to do distribution deals.
True, I have no idea. But I don't think you do either. We will have to see, won't we?

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:16 pm
by kawiultraman
I just hope adding an additional product doesn't spread their customer support even thinner.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:33 pm
by Archos5Fan
If it sells enough units it could help Archos with finances to expand Archos support and developement. If it sells just enough to be an irritant to the company then the customer and company will suffer.

I would like to see what will separate this netbook (in a postivie way) from the increasingly crowded market. CES has come and gone and we know who received the press and who didn't. It's not enough anymore to say that the others are crap, because if they're all just the same anyway that would put Archos in the same postiion.

Re: Possibly New Archos - PM700???

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:52 pm
by Loserfish
Just curious.. shouldn't a site admin be a bit more polite and mature during a discussion?
I guess nobody is attacking you personally Charbax... and it's some some tech talk.. so take it easy... aren't we all friends in here? :)