Charbax and Andy W.

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Charbax
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Post by Charbax »

MS DRM costs $0.02 to licence. Any product can add it, Apple could add it, nothing stops them from adding MS DRM other then their greedy stupid Steve Jobs money sucking mastermind corporates.

Archos CANNOT licence iTunes DRM. Apple does NOT licence it's DRM to anyone.

Are you trying to tell me that you do not see a difference there?

Archos does NOT limit its DRM content to one portal, the Archos Content Portal lets ANYONE provide content in it. Apple controls the 100% COMPLETENESS of the DRM content which you can buy for an iPod. It's like selling the cups where you can only drink the coffee from one company.

Are you trying to act stupid or are you purposefully talking BS?

Yes all DRM is CRAP, but there are more or less crappy ways to support DRM.

Linux supports DRM when its with GPL2. Is Linux crappy? Well a little you could say.
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Post by nasi »

Charbax wrote:Are you trying to tell me that you do not see a difference there?
Of course there is a difference and I am by no means defending Apple on this one. However that difference is academic in light of the following:
Yes all DRM is CRAP
Exactly. Thank you. That is the one point that we both agree on.
but there are more or less crappy ways to support DRM.
Maybe, but that is like saying there are more or less painful ways to die ÔÇô you're still dead! I personally do not really care what level of crappiness any particular DRM scheme has ÔÇô┬áit is all crap. Maybe Apple's DRM is dog crap, maybe Microsoft's is cat poo. I don't care because I won't eat either. (have I overdone the metaphors a little? ;-)

For myself, I do not buy DRM-crippled media. I won't do it. I would either buy CDs and rip them or buy non-encrypted music online (tends to be CDs through a combination of availability and price).

Because of that I don't see what value the ACP has (for me) as the consensus seems to be that the vast majority of content available will be crap-wrapped.
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Post by Charbax »

INA, VirginMusic, FNAC are just some of the partners of Archos that most probably will sell DRM-free music directly on the Archos Content Portal. And if it becomes confirmed, then probably a whole bunch of the American partners such as possible Wal-Mart will be selling DRM-free music on the Archos Content Portal.

Sure enough DRM will die soon, but that doesn't mean manufacturers should not manufacture any hardware until DRM is dead if they want to stay respectable.

The difference is Apple uses DRM more for its own hardware/software/portal monopoly then for the sake of the content providers wanting to protect their content. Even those evil music majors are unhappy with the way Apple thinks it should monopolise the industry.

iTunes sales are peanuts and no artists has ever seen any profit from it. All Apple is doing is delaying the digital music and video revolution to max out more bucks on the backs of its customers, but thankfully this won't last, real competition is coming, better technology is available and artists will really find new revenue streams and their artistic production value will explode.
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Post by mitchelln »

Charbax wrote:
mitchelln wrote:It's not as if the promised price drop really materialized.
$199 official release price of the 605 WiFi vs. $449 official release price of the 604 WiFi. Are you sure that you cannot see a price drop in those only 10 months between the launch of 604 WiFi and 605 WiFi?
You can't compare the $199 4GB SD 605 with the 30GB 604 WIFI.
The 30GB 605 costs a lot more than $199. Here in the UK it's £199 + delivery. In the States it's $299 + delivery. Then you have to buy the $29 browser plugin. I paid £237 for my 604 five months ago, long before the 605 was announced.
It would have been fine if they'd just made the plugin an extra on the low cost $199 4GB model, but they did it across the whole range. So, like I say, the speculated cheaper price of the comparable 605 did not happen. The hardware/plugin bundles did not happen.
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Post by alankayser »

Just for general information, I quote Wal-Mart

"Your player should be able to play WMA files encrypted with Digital Rights Management software, since most of our WMA files are encrypted. Please refer to the documentation that came with your player to determine if it is compatible with WMA-format music and the DRM encryption."

"Often, they are restricted with Digital Rights Management encryption, which means they can only play on a certain number of devices and computers, and they cannot be shared. Some devices can play the unrestricted WMA files only."

"Our Windows Media Audio (WMA) format files have DRM encryption. The Digital Rights Management (DRM) software is not compatible with any operating system other than Windows."

And since Wal-Mart has not struck any dl deals with either Apple or MS, I think it's a stretch that they would do so with Archos.

Your point seems to be that DRM is crap when it's used by Apple, but OK when it's used by ACP.

iTunes has sold over one billion units. Uh, if that's peanuts please send me some. No artists have profited? And do you see any artists making big bucks from ACP?
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Post by Charbax »

mitchelln wrote:You can't compare the $199 4GB SD 605 with the 30GB 604 WIFI.
I can and I will. 605 WiFi 4GB and 605 WiFi 30GB gives the same experience if you use the 605 WiFi 4GB to stream video content over the Internet instead of the internal storage. And by streaming video over the Internet it can be from your personal collection of thousands of GB of movies.

Wal-Mart ditches DRM:
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid= ... 6&from=rss
Wal-Mart selling DRM-free music:
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6203574.html

And anyways, I don't want to waste time argumenting about Apples crappy iTunes. 2 billion $1 songs sold wordwide in 3 years is peanuts, it's like half a day of the USA army in Iraq, it's nothing and that's why people haven't cared much about suing Apple into bankrupcy through a class action lawsuit. But now things will change and people will want a revolution to happen for the arts availabillity on the Internet and don't want to waste any time any longer.
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Post by mitchelln »

Charbax wrote:
mitchelln wrote:You can't compare the $199 4GB SD 605 with the 30GB 604 WIFI.
I can and I will. 605 WiFi 4GB and 605 WiFi 30GB gives the same experience if you use the 605 WiFi 4GB to stream video content over the Internet instead of the internal storage. And by streaming video over the Internet it can be from your personal collection of thousands of GB of movies.
How are you going to stream video on a train or a plane or if your kids are in the back of the car? People will inevitably store their files on the device itself. So how on earth you can say an 4GB device is equivalent to a 30GB model is simply beyond me.
No matter how you try to spin it Charbax, the hyped price drop for comparable models did not materialise. There is no justifiable argument here.
Last edited by mitchelln on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mitchelln »

Charbax wrote:And anyways, I don't want to waste time argumenting about Apples crappy iTunes. 2 billion $1 songs sold wordwide in 3 years is peanuts, it's like half a day of the USA army in Iraq
Eh? How can you compare US military spend burn rates with iTunes! 2 billion sales is simply staggering penetration in anyone's book.

I believe we can all agree DRM is a bad thing that will eventually die a death. In the meantime every company is going to milk the technology like there's no tomorrow because they fear and dread the day the cash cow finally dries up. If Archos help that day come closer then great.
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Post by Charbax »

2 billion sales is nothing. That's less then 400 million revenue for Apple since they probably cannot take more then 20% per sales, and a bunch goes to taxes thus 50% for the record industry and only a small percentage of that ever goes to any other artists then the top-10 artists.

Mitchelln is a pain, why do you absolutely want to have the last word.

604 WiFi 30GB was released 10 months ago for $449 MSRP.

605 WiFi 30GB is released now for $299 MSRP.

MSRP has gone down 34% for the basic 30GB unit in 10 months.

MSRP is suggested retail price at launch, take the 605 WiFi 30GB MSRP and remove about 25% if you want to know the prices that it will actually be available at at the cheapest retail stores, and read my blog if you want to understand how the 605 WiFi could even be 50% cheaper then its MSRP thanks to its new video-on-demand and music-on-demand features.

How can you CONTINUE to try and speak like you make sence? I should have stopped wasting my time argumenting with mitchelln anyways a long time ago.
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Last word

Post by mitchelln »

Charbax wrote: I should have stopped wasting my time argumenting with mitchelln anyways a long time ago.
Suits me. People can then make their own decision on who makes more sense by reading the thread.
Last edited by mitchelln on Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by alankayser »

Mitchelln

Don't you know that 2 billion sales is nothing? Peanuts! Why I guess some people on this forum make more than that in, oh, 2 billion lifetimes. Where does he get this stuff? Comparing it to military spending in Iraq? Huh? Even Homer Simpson would chuckle.

I'm sure Archos wouldn't mind that 2 billion. How long do you think it will take for ACP to reach 2 billion sales? Oh, that is once it starts working. How can any sane person look at 2 billion sales and say it's nothing? That's wild. Let's see how long it will take any competitor to reach that kind of sales.

All these "possibles" and "probably" and Archos may do this or that is just speculation. The fact is that they released a product full of promise but just reading lots of the posts will tell you that once again the consumer is the beta tester for them. Their products are very innovative. But they need to improve their service and to get a more finished product on the market.

As for Wal-Mart dumping DRM, thus far they have not dumped DRM. Check their on-line music store. It's going, but it isn't dead yet. And as I stated before, why would Wal-Mart even think about partnering with Archos when they haven't done so with MS or Apple?

OK, he can spin his blog and price comparisons any way he wants. His repulsion with Apple is pretty obvious and thus clouds any sensible points he might make.

But remember, "An Apple a day keeps the doctor away!"

:lol:
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Post by Charbax »

2 billion songs sold for 110 million iPods sold worldwide (mostly iPod nanos), that's less then 50 megabytes of legal music at 128kbit/s sold per iPod, with an average of 2GB storage per iPod, that's less then 1% of the storage capacity of the sold iPods that are filled with legal iTunes music.

And most iTunes music is bought by the rich kids who are buying for hundreds of dollars of music on iTunes because they don't care about money.
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Post by alankayser »

OK, so we spend about half a billion per day (Charbax estimate) on 160,000 troops that's about $3000 per person. Or you could say half a billion on 25 million Iraqis, that's only $20 per person! Crap, we sure are short changing them aren't we. But, half a billion comes to only $2 per American each day. Hey, that's peanuts!

My point, spin away my friend. Two billion is still two billion no matter what. Your numbers are what we call here in the USA "fuzzy."

Jobs must be crying in his Starbucks because he's only sold over 100 million iPods. Boo hoo. Two billion songs is two billion dollars. Two billion $ is a lot of money.

OK, survey. Everybody who thinks two billion $ is not a lot of money raise your hand...

There I told you.

:lol:
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Post by Charbax »

It's peanuts compared to what the online digitally distributed entertainment industry will be in 2 years.

You've got 110 million iPods mostly nanos which have 99% of their storage capacity mostly used for playing pirated music..

I'm not saying Archos has less % of pirated content on theirs, but the opportunities of that kind of hardware provides an alternative for the whole entertainment industry, for consumers to have more then 1% legitimate content on their portable players and especially a new business model for independant artists, cause that's what you get with a free market, you CAN be independant and you DON'T have to kiss Steve Jobs ass to sell your content at whatever ridiculous per track price and using whatever ridiculous monopolistic DRM scheme he wants. Which is the Steve Jobs strategy, force consumers to buy new iPods forever cause their legitimately purchased music will forever only work on a single companies iPods. 50% of iPod owners have more then one iPod in the household, which also inflates the 110 million number and means there are much less then 110 million unique iPods users.
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Post by alankayser »

OK, so let me get this straight. You are saying that the average iPod user has only 1% legit music on their player. But with only 1% of their legit music at risk, they still will be forced to go out and buy a new iPod??? But the 110 million isn't really 110 million???

Now I don't know about anyone else, but nobody has forced me to buy anything. Plus, if what I had on an iPod was only 1% DRM, then I sure as hell wouldn't be running out to buy a new anything because I've still got 99% of my music right where I want it.

Steve Jobs sure has a lot of power if he is able to force people to buy new iPods to use that 1% of legit music.

So it's peanuts compared to what will be sold in two years. Will we still be able to compare the numbers to Iraq in two years? Or will President Clinton get us out of there? Actually at $2 a head it's not really all that expensive. But if everyone saves that $2 a day for two years they can buy a new Archos AND an iPod. And that's not fuzzy math!!!
Charbax
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Post by Charbax »

You're forcing onto more american politics, then here it is:

Image

America does have low taxes and such compared to some other countries and tens of millions of people are left out of that system and don't pay taxes.

Anyways. Go check up the stats, how many $ did artists other then the top-10 artists get out of the 2 billion $ iTunes sales. The artists share probably isn't even 2% of that global iTunes revenue. So what good has iTunes music store revenue really provided to the society, nothing.

Basically iTunes was for Steve Jobs to sell more iPod nanos, and a scheme from him to try and lock legitimate users into forever buying new iPods. But thanks to imminent lawsuits against Apple in reasonable European countries and thanks to the class action lawsuits that will follow in the USA, probably that Apple will be forced to add windows media DRM at the least and also forced to licence its iTunes DRM to competitors. But this will probably take more months and maybe even years until greedy Steve Jobs decides to do it or waits to get sued with the bad publicity that goes with it to flip the switch. All iPods should get the upgrade through a iTunes synch-up or maybe he'll try to limit it only to new models shipped.
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Post by alankayser »

Perhaps you need to read this article:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.a ... o-bits?bub

And since the iPod and the iTouch use the same platform, it seems that Apple is not opposed to hacking!!!

And what in the heck is that chart supposed to mean? And can you tell me who the tens of millions who don't pay taxes are? Maybe everyone under 12 years old? I mean where do you get this stuff from? I live here, everyone pays taxes one way or another my friend. They buy things like gas and toilet paper. They pay taxes!!!!

Oh, and about that 1% DRM thingy, is Jobs a master of hypnotism? Is he able to subliminally "force" everyone to buy iPods? You are getting sleepy...when I snap my fingers you'll go buy an iPod.

How much of ACP will go the artists that Apple is stealing money from? If you don't know, then just use fuzzy math.

To refresh your memory, I believe you were the one who brought up politics.
it's like half a day of the USA army in Iraq
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Post by nasi »

Charbax wrote:You've got 110 million iPods mostly nanos which have 99% of their storage capacity mostly used for playing pirated music..
Ahh, the overyly-simplistic logic that is the backbone of many an RIAA crusade.

I don't have any DRM'd music on my iPod. I also don't have any pirated music on their. By your reasoning I must a very strange person to walk around with an empty iPod! Or, maybe I'm not so strange and I simply transferred all the music I have legitimately purchased from one medium (CD) to another (iPod).

All the same, thanks for branding myself and millions of others as thieves and criminals. Good job.
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Post by pmpmoja »

Wow, bloody.

I don't think you'll ever convince Charbax of anything; just by reading his replies he's the ultimate ArchosFan so take what he says with a grain of salt (or maybe a bucket...) I think the best bet would be to check back 2 years from now and see if Archos sells 2 billion (peanuts) songs via the ACP... unless of course other companies (e.g. Apple) ruin this plan and it's totally not Archos' fault.

P.S. Like most ipod users as well, I own a significant amount of CDs and buy regularly (via online BMGMusic) so my itunes purchased songs are pretty much like less than 1% of what I have.... I own a 604WIFI btw too...
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Post by suproach »

No please, not the american politics. I don't need to be reminded here too what a sad sad country I know live in. ](*,) :oops:
:-({|=
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