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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:07 pm 
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Bummer .....I called Archos and asked if the 604 wifi ran linux and was told yes....so I asked if they could point me in the right direction for the source code, I was told there is none and that it was their IP. I told the guy that, that cant be right if it used Linux . I said the modified source needed to release back to the community. I asked if I could talk to a sup., was on hold and then I was told it does not run linux......Hmmmm Makes me wonder does anyone know what this thing has for an OS?????


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:30 pm 
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Using Linux OS doesn't mean you have to release the source code of all your proprietary applications, your proprietary drivers for your proprietary hardware.

The Linux used isn't under GPL3 terms.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:00 pm 
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Thats why I said "the modified source"
I know what your saying.. A lot of people seem to think if it on linux then everything need to be open. However I know that is untrue...only modified GPL source.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:25 pm 
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Under the terms of the GPL2 (all current Linuxes are under the GPL2), they MUST release any source code they modify and provide some method of requesting it. That isn't GPL3... They do not have to provide copies of non-proprietary code, such as wifi drivers that do not hook into the operating system. How they would achieve that,... I do not know...

I assume they are right now, at least, violating the GPL2.

I await what they will do in response...
I think I might want to inform the Free Software Foundation... They are the subcontractors that enforce the GPL 2 with regards to the Linux Kernel.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:54 pm 
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I highly doubt that they are violating GPL2. I am not a specialist, but I simply imagine that they must be using a special version of Linux for embedded Multimedia devices developped by a partner of Texas Instruments, it could be Linux QT or Linux Montavista, and on that they simply install their proprietary Multimedia codec functions, interface and file structure functions, and by installing their stuff on top of that special embedded Linux distribution, as well as their own developped or commercially available drivers for all the different components, I mean I don't see why Archos would have to do such a mistake as violating GPL2 to be able to have lots of their own and their partners proprietary stuff going on there.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:06 am 
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Well, I am an attorney as well as a Linux enthusiast, and can tell you that it is next to imoossible to load a wifi driver into memory and hooking into the kernel. That neccesitates opening the source changes...

Also, Tivo did the same thing initially, until they were sent a cease and desist letter. It is not such a leap that Archos would do the same. Besides, the interface changes alone neceasitate publishing the source changes.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:27 pm 
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Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer said that "Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches,"

This is an example of that I think. It doesn't matter that you invested millions in R&D because if its linux it needs to be free for everybody. What a bunch of BS.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:57 pm 
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Bzzt. Wrong answer...

This is an example of trying to hijack users and prevent them from doing ANYTHING but what they PAY YOU FOR to the STUFF THEY BUY WITH THEIR MONEY....

It's Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) at its worst. Nobody here is advocating that they give the Archos 604 Wifi away. They are selling HARDWARE,... Let them continue to do that.

What is objectionable is not being able to make modifications on the unit when they themselves use OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE...

I just bought a 604 Wifi over the weekend. I want to be able to use it's Linux to make it into a PDA, which it essentially is,... Form factor and all... Touch Screen, WiFi, Large storage capacity, OK processor...

If Archos is using Linux to deliver this... then they are under an obligation to release the source code so that users can make their own changes. THEY DO NOT OWN THE SOFTWARE THEY PUT ON THIS THING. Linus Torvalds does,... and HE saw fit to give his rights freely... expecting others to do the same. Archos always could have used FreeBSD... It has a more permissible license...

Oh, but I forgot, nobody has already done all the programing work to make it embeded for them...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:37 pm 
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Ok folks.... the point of the post was not to get a bitch fest going. Yes I am a Linux lover, and to be honest that is the main reason I bought the 604 wifi. Everything I read about it indicated it was running linux. The point of the post is when I called Archo, and asked if its running Linux, they replied Yes. Then when I asked for the source and was told to hold on. When the guy came back he said it was there IP. Then I went into the GPL thing and aske to talk to a sup. Waited a few more moment and he can back and told me that it does not run Linux. So my point to the post is, it seems not even the people at Archos knows what it runs for an OS.

I also agree with JaseP


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:16 pm 
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I know this does not prove much of anything...just found it interesting. In the NDX.AVX file. I opened it in notepad, and see the directory structure is as
/mnt/data/pictures/
/mnt/date/music/

also have see the term Root used in a different file.
Like I said does not prove much of anything!!

Just dont see that in a windows environment much.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:44 pm 
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It does run Linux...no matter what they say...

Check out this topic:
http://forum.archosfans.com/viewtopic.php?t=1528

As mentioned there... I've only been able to get .avi files of google with my ubuntu linux laptop... that's not possible on my windows xp prof. machine, it'll force you to use that google flash player thingy... so whenever I want the whole avi file, I'll download it through my notebook.

To me that's a clear proof...so if others reported the same to work with the 604 Wifi...it's most likely the same basis WHY it works, isn't it...?

My guess is, that they do know very well what's running on their units. They just don't know what to tell you if you ask for the source of their OS.

martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:46 am 
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martinjay wrote:
It does run Linux...no matter what they say...

Check out this topic:
http://forum.archosfans.com/viewtopic.php?t=1528

As mentioned there... I've only been able to get .avi files of google with my ubuntu linux laptop... that's not possible on my windows xp prof. machine, it'll force you to use that google flash player thingy... so whenever I want the whole avi file, I'll download it through my notebook.

To me that's a clear proof...so if others reported the same to work with the 604 Wifi...it's most likely the same basis WHY it works, isn't it...?

My guess is, that they do know very well what's running on their units. They just don't know what to tell you if you ask for the source of their OS.

martin


I didn't think the gen 4 was the first archos line to be based on Linux. Wasn't the AV500 series also Linux? I know there are opensource projects ongoing for the AV340 and 400 series, but I think they were on another OS.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:57 am 
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I never claimed it was the first ;-)

In the "beginning", there was an opensource project called AVOS. Which aimed for a linux based OS on archos av-series. If I'm not mistaken, Archos somehow got them to work for them. After that, the firmware didn't have the extension .mod any more, but most likely .AOS as it still does nowadays. Kinda parallel to that was LinAV (--> which is now ArchOpen). If you're asking me, it has always been linux based, as soon as it got a "real" GUI... unfortunately they only opened the firmware once...and that was for the PMA430.

I just don't get it. Opening the firmware after a certain level of stability was the reason for the PMAs huge success. In my eyes, this could be a huge pro to buy the Generation 4 as well, if they'd just go a head and lay down the source code... All they had to say is:"you'll void your warrenty if you use 3rd party apps"...and they're out...

BTW, I think "all" opensource projects with Archos firmware are linux-based...couldn't think of one that isn't... Read some more.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:09 pm 
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Let me appoligize in advance for the post I am about to make.

This is what you want to hear:

Everyone at Archos are morons and don't know the A$$ from there elbows. You all know much more than their internal lawyers and IT developers. They really goofed up by assuming that all there R&D was for charity and they really have to give it a way now.

If you're all such genuises, why don't you start your own company and with what you all know, avoid the pitfalls that Archos encountered. I'm sure you'll get very far.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:46 pm 
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roxy99 wrote:
Let me appoligize in advance for the post I am about to make.

This is what you want to hear:

Everyone at Archos are morons and don't know the A$$ from there elbows. You all know much more than their internal lawyers and IT developers. They really goofed up by assuming that all there R&D was for charity and they really have to give it a way now.

If you're all such genuises, why don't you start your own company and with what you all know, avoid the pitfalls that Archos encountered. I'm sure you'll get very far.


Let me apologize for this, then...

Your check from M$'s "shill dept." is probably in the mail...
You are spouting their Balmer/Gates-esque, "Open Source is cancer, Evil, Communism," horse-pucky very well. After all, IBM hasn't made a DIME on Linux, and contributed NOTHING back to the community... (is my sarcasm showing???)

Archos did little in the way of R&D for the software this thing runs... Maybe they did for hardware,... (and yes this device is a wonderful piece of hardawre, well made, functions beautifully)... but not for software.

Their sin is not in supplying proprietary software along with Linux o run on this thing.... Their sin is not to disclose that the thing RUNS Linux (and YES it does,... without a doubt... their press releases confirm it). Then, they get totally close-mouthed about it because they don't want to disclose changes they made in Open Source Software that ISN'T THEIR IP, in accordance with the licensing terms.

If their media player software uses routines which do not use kernel hooks to get the most out of video playback on the DiVinci processor,... then GREAT!!! That's their IP, and they do not have to disclose it. However, the underlying OS,... Linux,... required changes so things like embededed WiFi would work... Those driver modules ALWAYS hook into the kernel (If they found a way to NOT make it do so,... announce it to the World so that other companies will buy their solution. By the way, binary shims do not equal not hooking into the OS). Doing so requires that they disclose their changes to the source and make it available.

They are also, once again, plainly in violation for NOT DISCLOSING THE GPL2 license to the OS software and the authors of that software (Again, they DIDN"T write this stuff, they co-opted it).

They are allowed to make money off this thing... They sell HARDWARE. What they CANNOT do is use someone else's software (Linux) on it without honoring the licensing terms. They are also, in my opinion, plainly stupid for not opening this device more. More and more OS enthousiasts would ssnap it up if they could load their own OS software on it. The un-initiated masses would still buy their easy-to-purchase extras. You can't tell me though, that they are making a TON of money on the extra downloads for the MP3 and WMV formats... That's just not likely, especially given the prices. Protecting THAT market is the only thing that opening up the device would protect.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:05 pm 
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Go get em JaseP


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:22 pm 
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Its the typical thing....most windows users dont understand what Linux and the GPL is, so they post things like that. I'm not surprised by it one bit. I have to say most Linux users try to explain this but it never goes anywhere, Im still glad it is explained to them though, maybe it will peek enough interest for them to look into it..


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:55 pm 
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C'mon guys, not a Linux vs. MS thread! Can't ONE forum exist for more than a few months before one of these infests it?!?!?!?


I purchased my Archos for the capabilities advertised. If you purchased it in order to modify it, don't be upset that the company doesn't want you to turn it into another product that they might very well be working on.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:58 pm 
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bazz wrote:
Its the typical thing....most windows users dont understand what Linux and the GPL is, so they post things like that. I'm not surprised by it one bit. I have to say most Linux users try to explain this but it never goes anywhere, Im still glad it is explained to them though, maybe it will peek enough interest for them to look into it..


Also, please check above and you'll see it was the LINUX user who started bashing on MS. Nobody bashed on Linux.

So saying that "most Linux users try to explain this but it never goes anywhere" isn't true in this case.

It just became a bash thread, which doesn't help make Linux look like anything other than an OS for angry nerds.

And yes, I am a Linux user as well, just sad to see these arguments happen and screw things up.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:06 am 
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So your only proof that they violate the GPL2 is that it does Wi-Fi?

I'm no expert in GPL2 of embedded Linux, but I will guess the Wi-Fi stuff can work on embedded Linux, and if you want the source code for that you can probably get it at the site that distributes the version of Linux that is the basis of this device, maybe try look what source code is available on Montavista, or QT Linux project sites, or maybe check out if Texas Instruments has some GPL2 source codes for the kind of Linux that works best with the DaVinci chip. Probably that every modification and suggestion that Archos does to that Linux core, probably in collaboration with Texas Instruments and other technological partners, probably that the source-code is available there. But for sure you cannot take that source code, modify it and install it on the 604 Wi-Fi, since the 604 Wi-Fi probably has all sorts of un-crackable 128bit or more firmware encryption algorithms that make it impossible for anyone else than Archos to produce a firmware update file that will install without modifying the actual hardware, with a modchip or something, and that makes it useless for most users.

Now again, I am sure Archos can put as much proprietary stuff they want on top of that Linux, that proprietary stuff is probably drivers, multimedia encode decode functions, overlay features and more proprietary hardware stuff including the hardware that makes DRM, Macrovision, Plug-ins, managment of codec Licences and more.

Instead of doing one more Linux PDA-like device, like the PMA430, which was not a commercial success, they decided instead to make a touch-screen and Wi-Fi device with the same Multimedia features, respect of copy-protection, respect of macrovision on analog signals, respect of on-demand Licences for codecs and more which is standard for the fourth generation of Archos devices.

With regards for more cool touch-screen and Wi-Fi features, sure it is fantastic, but the strategy is not this time on counting on the open source and SDK Linux embedded developpers community to add stuff, because that didn't work great with the PMA, this time Archos decided to be the one responsible for adding features, and I hope that they can make it using an auto-update function so that most users who have bought the device will know about the new features when they are available (a little alert icon showing as soon as a connection to the internet is activated "New firmware update available with new features, connect charger or usb cable and click here to download and install it") - an auto-feature-add auto-firmware-update feature like this one, and if Archos can sell a lot of 604 Wi-Fi worldwide this Christmas, this will provide the user base with reuirement for a combined after-sale customer firmware support that Archos will be able to provide new important features that most users will be able to auto-upgrade their device to have, thus continuously improve the value of the device..

And the features most people want are multimedia-centric, and really Ip-centric which Archos software engineers together with Archos software partners really are the only ones who can really program in a reasonable time (to have some fully working updates ready within months), not PDA-centric like most of the open-source Zaurus software is (office and calendar type software and the likes which not many people really need and want).. If you are a very talented embedded Linux programmer and you would like to contribute some features to this device, I suggest you rather try to apply for a job with Archos, or look at the work of the people at http://openpma.org for the old device, cause I'd say Archos probably won't go with the open-source strategy until that the audio and video industry really drops the idea of wanting to copy-protect content, and until regulation stops requirements for respect of Macrovision analog signals, and until open-source codecs become the main standard or that regulation changes the way codecs have to respect some certain licensing. I guess this change of the industry and the international digital laws won't happen for a year or so at least. For now, proprietary software for this type of device is the only way that works financially and legally.


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