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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:53 pm 
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From the Archos 101 specifications page:

http://www.archos.com/products/ta/archo ... gb&lang=en

With optional plug-in (downloadable on http://www.archos.com):
ÔÇó Cinema: MPEG-2 (up to DVD resolution MP/D1, 30 [email protected] Mbps)
With the above codecs, the device can play video files with the following extensions:
AVI, MP4, MKV, MOV, WMV, MPG, PS, TS, VOB, FLV, RM, RMVB, ASF, 3GP

They omit to tell you on the specifications page that the optional plugin costs £12.49 incl taxes http://www.archos.com/store/plugsearch. ... rchos101it

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:54 pm 
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For me No Big Deal. In fact this is a plus. Since I normally don't want to use any media which requires the cost for which Archos must pay extra.

Allen

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:02 pm 
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AllenPapapetrou wrote:
media which requires the cost for which Archos must pay extra


AKA a license fee. Understood and there are workarounds anyway but it's a bit devious not to mention on the specification page that the downloadable plugin which will allow full use of the advertised features will cost extra.

I don't see any reason, at this price point (£300.00) why Archos couldn't absorb the £12.50 (5%) and give the end user what they advertised out of the box without an extra stealth tax.

It's a bit shady.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:08 pm 
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This issue of passing on the cost has been discussed whenever Archos has sold plugins.

I look at it as totally on the up and up. I would rather not have Archos eat the cost, and if I want the plugin I have no problem paying for it.

To suggest that Archos is engaging in "shady" or illegal activity because of this is really crossing the line.

Allen

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:28 pm 
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Are there two plugins? One when you register, and one extra cost?

Per the specs, the extra-cost one cover MPEG2/AC3. If there is one given to you upon registering, what codecs does it provide?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:31 pm 
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AllenPapapetrou wrote:
This issue of passing on the cost has been discussed whenever Archos has sold plugins.

I look at it as totally on the up and up. I would rather not have Archos eat the cost, and if I want the plugin I have no problem paying for it.

To suggest that Archos is engaging in "shady" or illegal activity because of this is really crossing the line.

Allen


Show me where I said the word illegal ?

Nowhere because I didn't.

You did and what's more you may have a valid point :)

In the UK there are very specific laws regarding advertising.

Advertising a feature set without indicating in such advertising that certain features will cost extra is considered shady, in the UK.

If an advert for a car says it comes with alloy wheels it must be sold with alloy wheels.

If those wheels cost extra then that cost must -by law- be made abundantly clear in all advertising material.

Usually an asterisk * pointing a prospective buyer to caveats is sufficient but in Archos's case on that website they have failed to show that there is an extra cost if the user wishes to play certain content and that omission could easily be interpreted as a clear breach of the advertising standards authority rules in the UK.

Which is against the law. QED

The only caveat is a small 1 in the video playback which tells a user "1/ Certain bitrates, resolutions, and/or file variations may not be compatible."

The site doesn't mention that to play certain content you'll have to stump up another 5% on top of the purchase price and legally speaking, in the UK, they are obliged to do so.

Everything I've stated here is legally accurate, defensible, and easily verifiable.

Also, in the UK a legal decision was recently arrived at regarding user comments on websites.

The ruling - in brief - stated that if a user made a comment then the user was legally responsible for that comment.

If the site publishers altered the content of that comment in any way then the publishers became responsible for any defamation or libel contained in the comment.

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Last edited by zoom101 on Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:50 pm 
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zoom101 wrote:
AllenPapapetrou wrote:
This issue of passing on the cost has been discussed whenever Archos has sold plugins.

I look at it as totally on the up and up. I would rather not have Archos eat the cost, and if I want the plugin I have no problem paying for it.

To suggest that Archos is engaging in "shady" or illegal activity because of this is really crossing the line.

Allen


Show me where I said the word illegal ?

Nowhere because I didn't.

You did and what's more may have a valid point :)

In the UK there are very specific laws regarding advertising.

Advertising a feature set without indicating in such advertising that certain features will cost extra is considered shady, in the UK.

If an advert for a car says it comes with alloy wheels it must be sold with alloy wheels.

If those wheels cost extra then that cost must -by law- be made abundantly clear in all advertising material.

Usually an asterisk * pointing a prospective buyer to caveats is sufficient but in Archos's case on that website they have failed to show that there is an extra cost if the user wishes to play certain content and that omission could easily be interpreted as a clear breach of the advertising standards authority rules in the UK.

Which is against the law. QED

The only caveat is a small 1 in the video playback which tells a user "1/ Certain bitrates, resolutions, and/or file variations may not be compatible."

The site doesn't mention that to play certain content you'll have to stump up another 5% on top of the purchase price and legally speaking, in the UK, they are obliged to do so.

Everything I've stated here is legally accurate, defensible, and easily verifiable.

Also, in the UK a legal decision was recently arrived at regarding user comments on websites.

The ruling - in brief - stated that if a user made a comment then the user was legally responsible for that comment.

If the site publishers altered the content of that comment in any way then the publishers became responsible for any defamation or libel contained in the comment.


Very well put, zoom101. I applaud your eloquence, restraint and knowledge...a rare combination in forums these days. IMHO, the moderator was NOT justified in jumping all over you for the "shady" comment. In the US, much the same applies, except that a shrewd attorney may be able to circumvent the already tenuous rules. I for one also believe that it is a little shady of Archos not to fully disclose this on their website. I looked at the specs of the 101 before buying. I bought it because of the promised capability to play .MKV and .FLAC content. I DO NOT mind paying the extra fee; just let me know exactly what the total costs of initial ownership are--upfront. Archos has a very good device in both the A70 and A101; however, they LEAD people to believe they WILL be getting Froyo pre-installed on the shipping device and that it WILL play the aforementioned content. To me, this can only dilute their brand and reputation, as well as the actual merit of their devices. Soon, there will be lots of tablets on the market and Archos may not even be a viable option for some people...something for the company execs to consider.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:08 pm 
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AlexDroid wrote:
Very well put, zoom101. I applaud your eloquence, restraint and knowledge...a rare combination in forums these days. IMHO, the moderator was NOT justified in jumping all over you for the "shady" comment

Thank you.
AlexDroid wrote:
I bought it because of the promised capability to play .MKV and .FLAC content


The 101 does play .MKV and .FLAC files without the paid for update. At least, I haven't paid for the update and my 101 plays those files no probs.

I've just extracted a .VOB file from a DVD I own.

I loaded it onto the SD card and tried to play it. This is what popped up:

Quote:

Cinema plug-in

This file contains an MPEG-2 video format and an AC3 audio format.
You need to purchase the Cinema plug-in (DVD,MPEG-2,AC3) at http://www.archos.com/store

End quote.

I've tried really hard to find prior notification on Archos's website and I've drawn a blank.

I invite other Archos buyers to find a legally acceptable warning on their site and if they can't fine one I invite them and Archosfans Admin to join me in a campaign to make the plugin available as part of the initial purchase.

As advertised.

p,s I've tried to contact Admin regarding this issue but it would seem that my ability to PM has been restricted.

PM's are welcomed, to check.

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Last edited by zoom101 on Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:23 pm 
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Hmmm.

The specs page you link to says "optional" and "downloadable". I don't see "free" anywhere in the picture. Downloadable does not imply free. Optional certainly implies "not part of standard package", which in marketing lingo almost always equates to "extra cost".

Now, you may debate the finer point, and you're welcomed to do so. But this is the wrong avenue to do it. Those here acquainted with Archos' past products have always known that their plugins are extra-cost, and I doubt you can get a rise out of them to get a crusade started.

If you feel that strongly about it, then I suggest you contact an attorney, and have him/her contact Archos legal.

BTW, I don't think Allen was casting any aspersion on your post, at least not enough to warrant all of this legal blustering.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:32 pm 
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d00b wrote:
Hmmm.

The specs page you link to says "optional" and "downloadable". I don't see "free" anywhere in the picture. Downloadable does not imply free. Optional certainly implies "not part of standard package", which in marketing lingo almost always equates to "extra cost".

Now, you may debate the finer point, and you're welcomed to do so. But this is the wrong avenue to do it. Those here acquainted with Archos' past products have always known that their plugins are extra-cost, and I doubt you can get a rise out of them to get a crusade started.

If you feel that strongly about it, then I suggest you contact an attorney, and have him/her contact Archos legal.

BTW, I don't think Allen was casting any aspersion on your post, at least not enough to warrant all of this legal blustering.


You haven't seen the 2 PMs I had from Allen. Both of them defamatory and libellous.

Had they been published in public the irony is that he would have been immediately guilty of the things he falsely accused me of :)

Downloadable* Please note, there is an extra charge for this. Job done ... Purchaser made aware.

This is the wrong avenue ? If not here, the best Archos support forum, where other recent 101 owners will tip up, where else ? :)

I'm not seeking an argument, just a discussion. Do 101 owners feel that they ought to be able to play all of the formats advertised on the Archos website without paying an extra undisclosed supplement ?

And do we all agree that members of a discussion forum ought to be able to discuss, without fear or favour, in a sensible and legal manner, all of the issues pertaining to the forum title ?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:52 pm 
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I can't speak for your PM exchange with Allen. I can only speak for what's in this thread.

Yes, this is the wrong avenue, as it's a fan site owned by Charbax. While it's billed as an "Archos support site," the title is honorific and not legally binding. None of us have any rights here.

I do strongly suspect, that if you are going to push this issue beyond a certain point, this thread will simply be deleted. And it would be proper to it to happen, as I don't see this being the purpose of this forum.

>Do 101 owners feel that they ought to be able to play all of the formats advertised on the Archos website without paying an extra undisclosed supplement?

This is a rhetorical question, not a legal question. As has been pointed out, you have no legal grounds to argue. And has been reminded, if you feel otherwise, an attorney should be your next step.

>And do we all agree that members of a discussion forum ought to be able to discuss, without fear or favour, in a sensible and legal manner, all of the issues pertaining to the forum title ?

Per above, this is Charbax's private property, and we are all guests here at his pleasure.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:02 am 
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d00b wrote:
I can't speak for your PM exchange with Allen. I can only speak for what's in this thread.

Yes, this is the wrong avenue, as it's a fan site owned by Charbax. While it's billed as an "Archos support site," the title is honorific and not legally binding. None of us have any rights here.

I do strongly suspect, that if you are going to push this issue beyond a certain point, this thread will simply be deleted. And it would be proper to it to happen, as I don't see this being the purpose of this forum.

>Do 101 owners feel that they ought to be able to play all of the formats advertised on the Archos website without paying an extra undisclosed supplement?

This is a rhetorical question, not a legal question. As has been pointed out, you have no legal grounds to argue. And has been reminded, if you feel otherwise, an attorney should be your next step.

>And do we all agree that members of a discussion forum ought to be able to discuss, without fear or favour, in a sensible and legal manner, all of the issues pertaining to the forum title ?

Per above, this is Charbax's private property, and we are all guests here at his pleasure.


I agree with everything you said. Except. "This is a rhetorical question, not a legal question."

It's actually a question of legality.

That aside, is there a consensus that members of a discussion forum ought to be able to discuss, without fear or favour, in a sensible and legal manner, all of the issues pertaining to the forum title ? After all, we've been invited here, our presence attracts other users and the raison d'etre of this forum is to discuss all aspects of the Archos user experience.

If this thread does get deleted it will say more about the editorial policy of the site than the content of the thread.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:05 am 
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I most likely will not pay extra for this plugin. I don't really have a need for it. It seems a bit wierd to me though, that everything is available for roughly 12 dollars more?
Why not just give it out of the box and charge the extra for it up front? Especially if you are going to advertize it as a feature of the unit.
Would anyone who has ordered any of these models not have ordered them because of 12 dollars?
It may be Archos "normal practice" that those with an Archos history know about and accept, but it should be made clear to everyone that purchases the unit up front. It may not be shady, but to someone new to Archos, it certainly can seem shady.
All it takes is a * and a note at the bottom stating that a plugin is required for some formats at an additional cost. How easy is that?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:11 am 
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fbott wrote:
I most likely will not pay extra for this plugin. I don't really have a need for it. It seems a bit wierd to me though, that everything is available for roughly 12 dollars more?
Why not just give it out of the box and charge the extra for it up front? Especially if you are going to advertize it as a feature of the unit.
Would anyone who has ordered any of these models not have ordered them because of 12 dollars?
It may be Archos "normal practice" that those with an Archos history know about and accept, but it should be made clear to everyone that purchases the unit up front. It may not be shady, but to someone new to Archos, it certainly can seem shady.
All it takes is a * and a note at the bottom stating that a plugin is required for some formats at an additional cost. How easy is that?


"With optional plug-in (downloadable on www.archos.com):
ÔÇó Cinema: MPEG-2 (up to DVD resolution MP/D1, 30 [email protected] Mbps)
With the above codecs, the device can play video files with the following extensions: AVI, MP4, MKV, MOV, WMV, MPG, PS, TS, VOB, FLV, RM, RMVB, ASF, 3GP "

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:17 am 
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I noted that you entirely ignored my explanation in my first reply in regards to the validity of your "legality" claim. You are now simply trying to make a populist stance, which I frankly find distasteful. The consequence can only be a disruption of the site's purpose, which is to assist one another to make the most use of the Archos products we bought (or intend to buy).

I will also say that none of us have been invited here. I certainly didn't get any invitation in my e-mail. Again, I find your slant less than honest.

I'll repeat: None of us have any rights here. This exists because or Charbax's enthusiasm for Archos products, no more. Archos strictly speaking does not have a support forum.

Yes, Charbax is an unabashed Archos fanboy. And it is because of his very ardent fanboyism that he is willing to pay out-of-pocket for the expenses of keeping this site running. That's the positive side. The flip side of that is that I've seen threads more innocuous than this disappeared into the void. That's simply how it is. We take the good with the bad.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:21 am 
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I am not going to get in a debate over this issue.

I will explain:

I changed the title of this topic because it indicated Archos was engaged in illegal activity without substantiation. I also issued zoom101 his first warning.

In a later post zoom101 used the word "shady" which can mean illegal, again without substantiation.. I issued zoom101 a second warning.

Anyone doing what zoom101 did will get a warning from me. Too many warnings lead to a temporary ban. More warnings lead to permanent ban.

All Warning reports are available to our host, Charbax, and the Moderator team. Any member can PM (send a Private Message) Charbax and any of our Moderators.

Most of the time when I PM a member about a controversial issue I PM Charbax, and a couple of Modertors - to make sure they can be part of the dialog.

If you have an issue with my actions as a Moderator Please PM Charbax or any of the other Moderators.

Allen

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:26 am 
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AllenPapapetrou wrote:
I am not going to get in a debate over this issue.

I will explain:

I changed the title of this topic because it indicated Archos was engaged in illegal activity without substantiation. I also issued zoom101 his first warning.


Maybe you ought to have asked for substantiation ? I was, am and, I think, have been able to provide such substantiation.

AllenPapapetrou wrote:
In a later post zoom101 used the word "shady" which can mean illegal, again without substantiation.. I issued zoom101 a second warning.


I was and am able to provide it.

AllenPapapetrou wrote:
Anyone doing what zoom101 did will get a warning from me. Too many warnings lead to a temporary ban. More warnings lead to permanent ban.


No biggy, I've been doing screen grabs and save as throughout to keep track of the dialogue.

AllenPapapetrou wrote:
All Warning reports are available to our host, Charbax, and the Moderator team. Any member can PM (send a Private Message) Charbax and any of our Moderators.


I don't have an issue with that.

AllenPapapetrou wrote:
Most of the time when I PM a member about a controversial issue I PM Charbax, and a couple of Modertors - to make sure they can be part of the dialog.


Kk, no probs.

AllenPapapetrou wrote:
If you have an issue with my actions as a Moderator Please PM Charbax or any of the other Moderators. Allen


Tried to, my ability to pm (right of reply) seems to be non functioning.

Let's not have this blown out of proportion .. Let's have a discussion :)

p.s If my PM's haven't actually been sent you ought to check at least one of them :)

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Last edited by zoom101 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:30 am 
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@fbott

The extra-cost plugin (I'm still not sure if there's another plugin when you register) covers the MPEG2/AC3 codecs.

If you want to do a compare, look around at other PMPs' specs. The vast majority don't handle MPEG2 nor AC3.

There are workarounds. For Windows users, I've uploaded a script to convert AC3 tracks to AAC. The process is braindead simple, and it only takes a few minutes per movie.

The same script also converts MPEG2 to H.264. This will take longer, but you can batch process many videos overnight, and again it's a simple drag-drop process.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:34 am 
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manormortal wrote:
fbott wrote:
I most likely will not pay extra for this plugin. I don't really have a need for it. It seems a bit wierd to me though, that everything is available for roughly 12 dollars more?
Why not just give it out of the box and charge the extra for it up front? Especially if you are going to advertize it as a feature of the unit.
Would anyone who has ordered any of these models not have ordered them because of 12 dollars?
It may be Archos "normal practice" that those with an Archos history know about and accept, but it should be made clear to everyone that purchases the unit up front. It may not be shady, but to someone new to Archos, it certainly can seem shady.
All it takes is a * and a note at the bottom stating that a plugin is required for some formats at an additional cost. How easy is that?


"With optional plug-in (downloadable on http://www.archos.com):
ÔÇó Cinema: MPEG-2 (up to DVD resolution MP/D1, 30 [email protected] Mbps)
With the above codecs, the device can play video files with the following extensions: AVI, MP4, MKV, MOV, WMV, MPG, PS, TS, VOB, FLV, RM, RMVB, ASF, 3GP "


I understand what you are saying, and I saw that, but did not conclude from it that there was an additional cost involved.
In fact, I can't find it on the website. I looked under support and downloads, but perhaps I am not looking in the right place.

Is there a way that someone can research the price in advance of purchase (I don't mean this site, or other fan sites)? If so, then I stand corrected. I will say though that if it is there it is not easy to find.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:38 am 
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d00b wrote:
@fbott

The extra-cost plugin (I'm still not sure if there's another plugin when you register) covers the MPEG2/AC3 codecs.

If you want to do a compare, look around at other PMPs' specs. The vast majority don't handle MPEG2 nor AC3.

There are workarounds. For Windows users, I've uploaded a script to convert AC3 tracks to AAC. The process is braindead simple, and it only takes a few minutes per movie.

The same script also converts MPEG2 to H.264. This will take longer, but you can batch process many videos overnight, and again it's a simple drag-drop process.


Oh, it's no issue for me at all, I don't need to watch HD video on a 10" screen. I will be fine with what I get out of the box.
I was just commenting on the fact that the extra cost plugin is not obvious to someone new to Archos and could quite easily take more than one purchaser by surprise.


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