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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:20 pm 
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doom9 doesn't even have one single thread about the OMAP4 they don't know anything about it and neither do you.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:21 am 
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Not wanting to get in the middle of your 'discussion' but Chengbin, I've noticed you keep referring to HW decoders on GPUs. You know that's not really how Digital Signal Processor chips like the ones in the OMAP chipsets work, right? It seems at least a bit of this discussion might be founded on some miscommunications or misunderstandings about the technologies under discussion.

And yes, all the signal processing in the world can't make up for bad source input. Glass and CCD size will remain important factors in digital camera quality for the foreseeable future.

Just a thought.

Michael


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:48 am 
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map002 wrote:
Not wanting to get in the middle of your 'discussion' but Chengbin, I've noticed you keep referring to HW decoders on GPUs. You know that's not really how Digital Signal Processor chips like the ones in the OMAP chipsets work, right? It seems at least a bit of this discussion might be founded on some miscommunications or misunderstandings about the technologies under discussion.

And yes, all the signal processing in the world can't make up for bad source input. Glass and CCD size will remain important factors in digital camera quality for the foreseeable future.

Just a thought.

Michael


I'm not too familiar with how OMAP works, but I do know that if you want to do any sort of computational intensive work like video encoding on a portable device, you must resort to the power of the graphic processor, and the only way to fully extract processing power from a graphics processor is to split work into multiple pieces.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:27 am 
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Chengbin wrote:
map002 wrote:
Not wanting to get in the middle of your 'discussion' but Chengbin, I've noticed you keep referring to HW decoders on GPUs. You know that's not really how Digital Signal Processor chips like the ones in the OMAP chipsets work, right? It seems at least a bit of this discussion might be founded on some miscommunications or misunderstandings about the technologies under discussion.

And yes, all the signal processing in the world can't make up for bad source input. Glass and CCD size will remain important factors in digital camera quality for the foreseeable future.

Just a thought.

Michael


I'm not too familiar with how OMAP works, but I do know that if you want to do any sort of computational intensive work like video encoding on a portable device, you must resort to the power of the graphic processor, and the only way to fully extract processing power from a graphics processor is to split work into multiple pieces.


An old Nvidia GPU has 512 CUDA cores that do work in parallel. DSPs and ISPs are not like that.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:26 am 
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Chengbin wrote:
...if you want to do any sort of computational intensive work like video encoding on a portable device, you must resort to the power of the graphic processor, and the only way to fully extract processing power from a graphics processor is to split work into multiple pieces.

Yeah, you're describing what a GPU does, not what a modern DSP architecture necessarily does.

Sophisticated DSPs run the same DSP encoding/decoding algorithms as CPUs, but are essentially RISC chips optimized to run only these operations and leave out unneeded functionality (like floating point operations, for example) so as to be extraordinarily fast at running those specific sorts of algorithms.

Although there are multi-core DSPs (like the Cell processor), modern DSPs don't use the hundreds or thousands of simple cores that GPUs do. They might have 8 or 16 cores, but parallel process data in a manner much more like modern CPUs do. In fact, clusters of DSPs are being effectively combined as transputers to serve as RISC CPUs, as in the case of the aforementioned Cell processors.

Anyway, it's fascinating stuff if you want to take the time to read up on the technology.

Michael


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:24 pm 
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I will no longer discuss this issue due to my lack of knowledge in the DSP area. But I do still stand by my point: CPU encoding will always be much more efficient.

If the DSP can do video encoding, but the technology is not used as modern CPUs, that means it is a chip specialized for some functions (most likely math). While that might get the job done, it uses inefficient (compression wise) or simple algorithms due to the lack of processing power and manpower to code. The fact that the best hardware video converters used in broadcast are still far away from the compression efficiency of a computer means that the technology is nothing magical, just the normal pace of advancement in technology.

@Charbax, I back off on the stuff I don't know about. I hope you'll do the same.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Chengbin wrote:
But I do still stand by my point: CPU encoding will always be much more efficient.

...Which is why a good DSP chip is so much better than a GPU at digital signal processing, because it uses the same DSP algorithms as a CPU, it just runs them many times faster than a CPU because of what it doesn't do that a CPU can do.

So, much more complex than a GPU, not as complex as a CPU, but just complex enough to do DSP jobs flawlessly.

Actually, I think you got to the heart of it rather nicely there.

Michael


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:33 am 
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map002 wrote:
Charbax,

Archos doesn't have to tell Google what to do at all. They've known what the HW requirements are for over a year now. All they have to do is put all the correct little HW bits and bobs onto their devices to qualify for Googles minimum Android HW specs and they can have the Google apps immediately and we can finally have devices that will run all the wide range of Android apps a proper uncompromised Android tablet should be able to run.

The one thing that scares me is that you seem to be building a defence for them not having done this. I was hoping only the mini-tablet was HW feature deficient, I begin to suspect that this might be the case for all of the Gen 8 IT line... Ugh.

Let's hope I'm just being paranoid. ;)

Michael


This really had me surprised.

Are there any good reasons Archos may want to leave this feature of their devices?
Is a just the added cost or is it some principle thing like they do not like any Google dictation?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:17 pm 
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xfirex wrote:
map002 wrote:
Charbax,

Archos doesn't have to tell Google what to do at all. They've known what the HW requirements are for over a year now. All they have to do is put all the correct little HW bits and bobs onto their devices to qualify for Googles minimum Android HW specs and they can have the Google apps immediately and we can finally have devices that will run all the wide range of Android apps a proper uncompromised Android tablet should be able to run.

The one thing that scares me is that you seem to be building a defence for them not having done this. I was hoping only the mini-tablet was HW feature deficient, I begin to suspect that this might be the case for all of the Gen 8 IT line... Ugh.

Let's hope I'm just being paranoid. ;)

Michael


This really had me surprised.

Are there any good reasons Archos may want to leave this feature of their devices?
Is a just the added cost or is it some principle thing like they do not like any Google dictation?


The reason is that when people buy something from the Googles store google will get part of the income.
Archos is part of the apslibs and will provide TV series & movies etch to the service as stated on some of the reviews.
This gives Archos a part of the holy grail of marketing witch is known as the iTunes phenomem.
If that is good thing or not that I don't know but the reason is purely commercial.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Re: Why the missing features for Google comparability... I'm pretty sure it's mostly down to cost per unit. It costs something to add each component, both in terms of money and space in the tablet (both very limited commodities).

Archos had about a 7% profit margin on Gen 7. Their target is 20%+ margin on Gen 8. So for each and every component, they have to ask themselves, 'if we cut this out, will enough people not buy the device because of this being missing that we can't make it up by making more per unit? Will someone buy the device because of this feature so we'll sell enough more units to justify it's inclusion through increased profits?'

So big, noticeable, expected (like cameras) stuff gets included and less noticeable, less marketable stuff (like the magnetoscope) gets dropped.

It's a very simple Euros and cents decision. If that means the devices aren't fully functional in Android, they expect most consumers won't realize that since they can't see Apps that need those things unless they hack the device, which only a tiny fraction of consumers will do.

And this year, Archos signed some deals to bundle Amazon and Barnes & Noble apps on the device, so, sorry, no AppsLib = iTunes for Archos. They don't have the money or the infrastructure to sell media. Even Dell, who has a lot more money and clout than Archos, teamed with Amazon for media on the Streak.

Thankfully Archos had the sense not to try to compete with Apple there.

Michael


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:10 pm 
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Ok, so it is a cost issue.

Just wonder how people will feel when they buy the Archos and find the Google stuff is missing.
I think most people expect the Google apps to be there.

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