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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:55 pm 
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OK. Kids are loving their tablets but the problem is as has been stated before, storage. The Archos Gen8 tablets only have 250 meg available for app installation and storage. Even after moving to SD Card the dalvik-cache remains chewing up precious space. Will Archos or for that matter CAN Archos change the filesystem or storage partitioning to allow a full 2 Gig for internal storage so that these tablets won't run out of application space so quickly? Anyone in the know or if they have heard anything it would be greatly appreciated. For that matter if anyone at Archos is reading this please do something to rectify this situation in a future update.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:41 am 
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Why don't you install apps2sd. it makes the process much easier to move things. The important thing to remember about space not used is that it's space not used. ;) I don't see this as an issue as more and more apps allow SD operation. Archos could change this but to do so would require a full reformat of all memory unless it could be done with parted. You could do this with the developer edition. For most users there is some traumatic risk.

You could also write application developers that don't enable SD operation. The whole idea of enabling this in Android was to make device storage moot.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:45 am 
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sequitur wrote:
Why don't you install apps2sd. it makes the process much easier to move things. The important thing to remember about space not used is that it's space not used. ;) I don't see this as an issue as more and more apps allow SD operation. Archos could change this but to do so would require a full reformat of all memory unless it could be done with parted. You could do this with the developer edition. For most users there is some traumatic risk.

You could also write application developers that don't enable SD operation. The whole idea of enabling this in Android was to make device storage moot.


I guess you don't get it. Apps2SD means NOTHING. It will move SOME of the app to SD but the Dalvik-cache which is what the JIT builds for EVERY application on the system remains in the system storage. Seeing that we have only 256 meg it gets used up QUICK even with moving apps2SD w/ Froyo. That's why devices like the Incredible, Evo, Galaxy S, Droid X, etc... have a far greater partition size. 256 Meg is no different on the A70/A101 than the original Droid running Froyo. Archos needs to address this issue ASAP or these tablets will be relegated to the bargain bin awfully quick.

The default Android file system has the Dalvik-Cache in the /data partition. This partition resides in the system memory. This is also the partition that has only 256 megabytes available for application installs. Depending on the application, its' size and the amount of applications you have this can be used up quite quickly even after moving the app2sd.

EDIT: For instance my son has Ninja Jump, Madden 11, Angry Birds, Angry Birds Seasons, Jewels, Kindle and about 15 other assorted applications totaling about 20 meg. He has 134 meg free of the 256 meg initially available. These are all moved to SD but like I said the Dalvik Cache remains in system memory. This is where the system memory needs to be paritioned to a minimum of 2 Gig in order to prolong the usefulness and life of the device.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:55 am 
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I don't see Archos making any changes to this. The way it is working now is the way it was designed by Google. Granted, Archos could have put more memory in but they didn't. Your best bet would be to buy a device that has more memory instead of wising that Archos will change the way things are done.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:12 am 
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blazingwolf wrote:
I don't see Archos making any changes to this. The way it is working now is the way it was designed by Google. Granted, Archos could have put more memory in but they didn't. Your best bet would be to buy a device that has more memory instead of wising that Archos will change the way things are done.


It wasn't designed by Google this way it was a misstep by Archos. They advertised the device as an 8 gig device but all along it is gimped with minimal system storage. The memory in the unit is all flash memory that is partitioned the way it is. It is possible to repartition the device but archos would have to change from SquashFS to YAFFS or EXT3. Then they can mount an extended block device to the system partition giving at least 2 gig. It is a design flaw and an oversight by Archos. It can be fixed but would require some nifty coding and a full wipe of the system if they were to ever do such a thing. Again coming from the Android dev community and being a linux admin this is a HUGE oversight on Archos' part and needs to be addressed ASAP. It may also be worth noting that now that google has increased the limit to 50 meg on an app this could potentially negate the usefulness of the device as a tablet and relegate it as a glorified web browser and media player.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:46 am 
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I've got to agree.... The size of the /data partition is pretty arbitrary (from a system design POV), and is something that could definitely be larger.

I can see where implementing it might take a wipe+firmware update+reload, but it would be worth it to increase the amount of space available to apps.

+1 here.


grnbrg.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:55 am 
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grnbrg wrote:
I've got to agree.... The size of the /data partition is pretty arbitrary (from a system design POV), and is something that could definitely be larger.

I can see where implementing it might take a wipe+firmware update+reload, but it would be worth it to increase the amount of space available to apps.

+1 here.


grnbrg.


Thank God a voice of reason! 8) Now if the folks at Archos would actually pay attention to this and do something about it! It sucks knowing that I have only 300 meg available when with a re-write I can have 2 gig PLUS the ability to use Apps2SD which would make the device infinitely more flexible/usable. As it stands now the two A101's I purchased are less of a "deal" than a Samsung Galaxy Tab. Come on Archos. You can do it!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:00 am 
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Samsung took the internal 16GB card of the Galaxy S phones and sliced off 2GB for apps, leaving 14GB(or so) of the internal card for general storage. There's no reason why Archos can't do the same for the 101, especially when they did that with the 250GB version of the 70.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:43 am 
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I agree with Darkseider.

It would be great if Archos got it. Gen8 would be a winner again, now that there are a lot of tablets with 512 Mb or 1 Gb.

Remember that nz (from Archos) said it will be impossible to replace RAM: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=42806&start=40


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:33 pm 
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If you can wait a few more days there will be a solution to this.
The guys at xda allready have an Android bootable from SD that has non of these limits.

Thanks to SDE this no real problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Honestly, this is one of the few things that I don't like about my A70 (Bluetooth tethering doesn't work also). If there is a solution coming from XDA, that would be great. But hopefully Archos will take heed of our displeasure and do this when they (hopefully) upgrade us to 2.3/2.4.

Man, I wish I knew some coding and stuff so I could help out and get this stuff done faster.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Agree 100% with Darkseider and thanks for bringing it up again

I tried bringing up this subject when I first joined this forum, and others before me has also done so, but so far with no success - good to see others with adequate knowledge bringing up the subject again. The problem seem to be gathering enough people to support this request as most replying simply dont understand the issue and confuse this with Apps2sd or Google Android design etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:29 pm 
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FZelle wrote:
If you can wait a few more days there will be a solution to this.
The guys at xda allready have an Android bootable from SD that has non of these limits.

Thanks to SDE this no real problem.


That's not a solution at all. I have been following that thread closely and while it does solve the problem it is all but useless due to EXT3 being slower than snot on the SD Card. The real solution would be for Archos to redo the firmware and partition the device properly. Not to mention how many people that buy these know of XDA or are willing to void their warranty with SDE? Seriously this needs to be addressed by the manufacturer.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:32 pm 
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I hope archos read this I have a archos 43 tablet for 2 weeks and i am out of application memory with only
299mb for apps this is a joke and if I knew this I would never of bought this device.So if you guys are wanting to buy a archos tell archos you don't want to buy one until the app memory has been extended to at least 2gb min I really hope you are listening archos as you will loose big sales due to this small glitch I mean one game these days can fill the whole app memory get a grip archos.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:29 pm 
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tECHNGRO wrote:
Honestly, this is one of the few things that I don't like about my A70 (Bluetooth tethering doesn't work also). If there is a solution coming from XDA, that would be great. But hopefully Archos will take heed of our displeasure and do this when they (hopefully) upgrade us to 2.3/2.4.

Man, I wish I knew some coding and stuff so I could help out and get this stuff done faster.


I agree with you 100%, this is some BS. They do advertise the 8GB of storage but if the device can only use 256MB for Apps, what good is all that internal storage. My Moto Cliq can do that and I hate my phone now that it's slow & obsolete.

Oh yeah, and bluetooth tethering does not work. I've opened tickets to tech support and you get this one sentence responses with no real attempt to fix the problem or address it. I guess I now have to live with this constant juggling of apps for a device with 6GB of available internal storage.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:01 pm 
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All of you must be installing hundreds of massive apps. When I first got my A101 I went a little nuts and had ~130-140 apps at one time. With only 5-6 apps actually defaulting to SD storage I moved everything to the SD card and still had over 50MB left I believe.

Everyone has told me that if they were to map 2GB to apps, that is the ONLY use of that storage. I couldn't just put some music or video there. While on a 16GB or 250GB device that isn't terrible, I really don't want 25% of my space used up just for app storage that I will never get close to using.


While you bought your device with 8GB expecting 8GB of app storage, I expected 8GB of media storage. This seems to be a major difference in android vs iOS. There is no such concept of an apps limit on my iPhone, I simply have 16GB of space and I put stuff on it. Not sure why Android needs to piece out the disk space like it does.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:59 pm 
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soulhunt79 wrote:
All of you must be installing hundreds of massive apps. When I first got my A101 I went a little nuts and had ~130-140 apps at one time. With only 5-6 apps actually defaulting to SD storage I moved everything to the SD card and still had over 50MB left I believe.

Everyone has told me that if they were to map 2GB to apps, that is the ONLY use of that storage. I couldn't just put some music or video there. While on a 16GB or 250GB device that isn't terrible, I really don't want 25% of my space used up just for app storage that I will never get close to using.


While you bought your device with 8GB expecting 8GB of app storage, I expected 8GB of media storage. This seems to be a major difference in android vs iOS. There is no such concept of an apps limit on my iPhone, I simply have 16GB of space and I put stuff on it. Not sure why Android needs to piece out the disk space like it does.


It has NOTHING TO DO WITH APP STORAGE!!! [Edit] For the love of God and all that is holy! The APP can be MOVED to SD. There is still a HUGE remnant that will remain on the system partition due to the Dalvik cache! EVERY app whether you use it or not is profiled and then has a cache built against it for Dalvik to use that resides in the /data directory which is part of the 299 meg. Let's not forget that the applications also store their cache on that same 299 meg. So if you browse alot the cache will get larger and therefore REDUCE available space. This isn't rocket science people. Samsung, HTC, Motorola, LG, etc.. have ALL recognized this and adjusted for how Android works and have given 2 gig for apps. This isn't so the WHOLE app resides there but to allow the user to USE the device without fear of running out of room due to cache and the dalvik cache as well as eliminating the need to micro manage their devices. Good God. Stop defending Archos for a design flaw which can be EASILY fixed with a firmware update.

The reason Android sets aside partitions like this unlike iOS is to keep the partitions CLEAN. Data goes to SD, App can be moved to SD which is slower. Any necessary info, like application cache and the dalvik cache, remains in the flash memory for performance as well as to keep the OS clean and free. It is a simple concept to understand. This is why iOS devices when they get within 10% of their storage limits begin to falter and corrupt. Whereas with Android this CAN'T happen due to its' design. Like I mentioned earlier manufacturers recognized this after Froyo was released and gave 2 gig for apps, not for the app to stay there, but for the important parts that remain the cache and dalvik cache to get the best performance out of their devices.


Last edited by Harfainx on Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Edit - Foul Language


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:21 pm 
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How do you monitor the Dalvik cache usage and can it be flushed?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:23 pm 
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deet wrote:
How do you monitor the Dalvik cache usage and can it be flushed?


Dalvik cache cannot be flushed. If deleted the system will stop working until it is rebooted. At which point it will re-profile EVERY app on the system and rebuild its' cache for operation putting you in the SAME spot you were before you deleted it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:23 pm 
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deet wrote:
How do you monitor the Dalvik cache usage and can it be flushed?


Dalvik cache cannot be flushed. If deleted the system will stop working until it is rebooted. At which point it will re-profile EVERY app on the system and rebuild its' cache for operation putting you in the SAME spot you were before you deleted it.

EDIT: Also note that since the device can no longer be rooted, even temp rooted, there is no way to see how much space Dalvik is taking. You can install a terminal emulator and the type cd /data/dalvik-cache and press enter then type pwd and press enter. It will show that you are in the correct directory but as a user you do not have permission to ls the directory. As a matter of fact as a user you cannot even run ls in the / directory. Fun ain't it?


Last edited by Darkseider on Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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