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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:32 am 
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I hope archos read this I have a archos 43 tablet for 2 weeks and i am out of application memory with only
299mb for apps this is a joke and if I knew this I would never of bought this device.So if you guys are wanting to buy a archos tell archos you don't want to buy one until the app memory has been extended to at least 2gb min I really hope you are listening archos as you will loose big sales due to this small glitch I mean one game these days can fill the whole app memory get a grip archos.


Last edited by Harfainx on Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Edit - Removed caps lock from title


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:57 am 
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Although I do agree that more app space would be great, I find it hard to imagine what apps you have installed to fill the device in only 2 weeks.

I have several 'gameloft' games installed as well as 40+ other apps and still have 130mb free space.

Have you tried apps2sd from the market or within Froyo 2.2. That could free up some valuable space.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:32 pm 
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ViPaSoft wrote:
Although I do agree that more app space would be great, I find it hard to imagine what apps you have installed to fill the device in only 2 weeks.

I have several 'gameloft' games installed as well as 40+ other apps and still have 130mb free space.

Have you tried apps2sd from the market or within Froyo 2.2. That could free up some valuable space.


Apps2SD only moves the app files. The dalvik cache as well as the apps cache all remain on the 300 meg partition which fills up quickly. This is an oversight by Archos and needs to be addressed ASAP.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:34 pm 
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#jutley

Please let your voice be heard in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=44750


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:06 pm 
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Darkseider wrote:
ViPaSoft wrote:
Although I do agree that more app space would be great, I find it hard to imagine what apps you have installed to fill the device in only 2 weeks.

I have several 'gameloft' games installed as well as 40+ other apps and still have 130mb free space.

Have you tried apps2sd from the market or within Froyo 2.2. That could free up some valuable space.


Please link a list of apps that when moved to SD still use up all the space. I had 140ish installed and still had 50+MB left.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:51 pm 
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I agree, the app space is more than adequate. The folks that even have dozens of apps installed probably constitute less than 1% of Android users (the average I understand is 8 installed apps). The folks that actually hit the app limit after moving apps to SD are probably less than 1% of the 1%. For the remaining 99.99% a larger apps space partition would simply be a waste of space.

If you think you need that many apps, just store the apps on the SD as apk files. Leave a little room in your apps partition and install/deinstall as needed. When you hit 100+ apps, you are likely using quite a few very infrequently, and the few seconds it takes to install on the rare occasion when you need that app is trivial. You could have hundreds of apps available on the device that way. If even that is unacceptable, you probably want a netbook instead of a tablet. Or wait a year or two, and technology and price/performance will catch up with your app lust. :D


Last edited by macemoneta on Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Quote:
Please link a list of apps that when moved to SD still use up all the space


You dont seem to understand how this works
Every single application will use part of the limited 299mb appspace - even those that can be moved to SD
Only a limited part of the application will be moved to SD - not all of it. Check your apps under settings, apps manager, the memory use listed after install to SD are the memory it still takes up in the limited system storage, not the memory it takes up on the SD. The same app may list a memory use of 5 mb when installed to system storage, but after being moved to SD may report 1 mb, this means it still use 1 mb of system storage and the rest 4 mb are moved to SD.

Angry birds for instance use 16,04mb when installed to system memory
When you move this to SD, the apps manager will now report that it use 1,90mb and the total free system memory will increase with 14,15mb. The 14.15mb are whats moved to SD, but the 1,90mb are what is still being used in system memory.

It makes no sense to list apps that still use system storage, because everyone does, not a single app can be entirely moved to SD

Read the thread which is linked above for more information.


Quote:
I had 140ish installed and still had 50+MB left


So what ? that says nothing except that you installed lots of very small applications
Others may want to install 10 applications which each take up more than 30mb each and then run out of space.
I have 15 applications installed and have only 50mb left - theres lots I would still like to install but cant because I would run out of space.

The new google marked allows applications to be up to 50mb - how many of these do you reckon can be installed within 299mb ?

Apps2sd are a band aid that helps, but its not a sollution that solves all.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:56 pm 
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spawn wrote:
Others may want to install 10 applications which each take up more than 30mb each and then run out of space.


Rather than complain to Archos, you want to complain to those app developers to update their apps for 2.2 SD support. About a dozen of the apps I use have recently released updates, and now use only a tiny fraction of their original space allocation.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:01 pm 
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#macemoneta

you are wrong

I know many android users, using different android devices, and are part of many different android forums, and the question that ALLWAYS comes up are "why am I running out of apps space" - and its not those that actually understand the issue that asks, they allready know the answer, its all those "average joe" users that dont know the answer in advance that asks.

Furthermore, apps are moving from being small silly "lightsabers and foghorns" to more advanced apps and games with better graphics etc. that takes up alot more space

An android experience is all about being able to install as many and any application the user want - its not about being constantly limited or constantly having to backup some and reinstall something else everytime the user wants to do something.

It may be fine for you with the limited space - then peace be with you - but please dont try to make your limited demands into some standard for what an average user should want.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:11 pm 
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macemoneta wrote:
spawn wrote:
Others may want to install 10 applications which each take up more than 30mb each and then run out of space.


Rather than complain to Archos, you want to complain to those app developers to update their apps for 2.2 SD support. About a dozen of the apps I use have recently released updates, and now use only a tiny fraction of their original space allocation.


Again, you simply dont understand the issue.
Even with App2sd support some system storage are still being used, and complaining to developers (which I also do) are only part of it.
299mb are simply not enough, which other manufacturers like Apple, HTC and Samsung have fully recognized and delt with in their devices. An IOS device are not limited to 299mb, neither are a Galaxy tab or Galaxy S phone, or a HTC Desire Z or Desire HD etc. which all offers more than 1gb app storage.

Archos should have recognized this right from the beginning also and partitioned the 8 gb internal storage differently - any Android developer could have told them so and then there would have been no issue. Now they made it more difficult for themselves to correct, but not impossible.

So I will "complain" to Archos for not doing this properly to begin with - and I will continue to kindly ask for a correction.

PS: And to people who feel a need to defend Archos everytime a concern is raised that may actually improve the device - please do understand that your defence are misplaced and not really helping anyone, not even yourselves. The only thing you are doing are helping to keep the device being less than it can be. Those of us raising these concerns are not doing so to badmouth Archos, so theres no need for your defense, we are doing so to improve the device for the benefit of all - us and you included.


Last edited by spawn on Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:17 pm 
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spawn wrote:
#macemoneta

you are wrong

I know many android users, using different android devices, and are part of many different android forums, and the question that ALLWAYS comes up are "why am I running out of apps space" - and its not those that actually understand the issue that asks, they allready know the answer, its all those "average joe" users that dont know the answer in advance that asks.


Forum users are not typical users. Sites like Android's Market and Appsbrain know the actual average number of installed apps. The people commiserating over the lack of app space are not typical.

spawn wrote:
Furthermore, apps are moving from being small silly "lightsabers and foghorns" to more advanced apps and games with better graphics etc. that takes up alot more space


The majority of that used space is data, and should be on the SD in 2.2 systems. Rewarding poorly coded apps with more room for bloat is not a solution either.

spawn wrote:
An android experience is all about being able to install as many and any application the user want - its not about being constantly limited or constantly having to backup some and reinstall something else everytime the user wants to do something.


According to you.

spawn wrote:
It may be fine for you with the limited space - then peace be with you - but please dont try to make your limited demands into some standard for what an average user should want.


You are not average in your apps usage. Don't waste my content space with your requirements.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:38 pm 
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Quote:
Sites like Android's Market and Appsbrain know the actual average number of installed apps. The people commiserating over the lack of app space are not typical.


But these do not take into account why the average number of installed apps are as they are
For many users the number would be alot higher if they were not limited by available app storage.
The number on IOS devices in comparison are alot higher - why ? - because they dont have the same limitation.
And yes, people commiserating over app space are in fact typical - I administer 800 mobile phones for "average" users at work alone and everyone I talked to has raised this concern.

------------------

Quote:
According to you.


Yes, according to me - and apparently according to Archos also

I quote their website advertisment

Quote:
Your own world of AndroidÔäó applications
Play the latest 3D games with the OpenGL 3D graphic acceleration, check news and social networks plus add hundreds more applications via the AppsLib store.


-------------

Quote:
You are not average in your apps usage. Don't waste my content space with your requirements.


I am highly average - I only have a limited number of apps installed, they just take up alot of space each.
Your content space can easily be increased upto 32gb by adding an SD card, my apps requirements cannot - 1-2gb more or less content storage doesnt make any serious difference, but it does as Apps storage.

---------------


Last edited by spawn on Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:53 pm 
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spawn wrote:
I dont want to argue semantics - but I seriously dont understand the reason why some users feel a need to defend the lowest denominator instead of supporting the highest.

Would the device be worse to you or anyone else if it were not limited to 299mb app storage ?


Yes, my (already full) content space would have to be reduced. Now I have to delete content for app space I don't need.

spawn wrote:
Would the device be better to some if it were not limited to 299mb app storage ?


Yes, but since that group constitutes less than 1/100 of 1% of the user population, increasing the app space would be the greater harm.

spawn wrote:
Theres only one sensible logical answer to these questions - so why are you arguing ?


Because reality doesn't support your perspective. As I update and install more apps, my app space usage is decreasing - developers are changing their app space usage to fit the 2.2 model. You are advocating and supporting a 2.1 and earlier development model which does not apply to this platform.

spawn wrote:
It doesnt matter if I am a power user or not, it doesnt matter what the average user may want or not


That is a bizarre perspective for a mass produced product.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:01 pm 
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We are clearly wasting each others time so lets just agree to disagree - shall we


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:51 pm 
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@Macomoneta

You seriously you just don't get it. REGARDLESS of moving the app to SD a portion of it, sometimes LARGE portion, remains on the system. It has NOTHING to do with the way the developer writes the app but how Android works. This is because the dalvik cache creates a profile for EVERY app and it HAS to be stored in the /data partition, end of story, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. Now with Google recently giving the green light for apps to be 50 meg MAX that means even after you move the app anywhere from 5 to 10 meg will still remain in that 300 meg partition. Let's also remember that there is ONE Toshiba flash chip in this which can be partitioned by Archos how they see fit. They should follow Samsung's model and give 2 Gig to the system and the rest to storage. This would quickly alleviate and solve all of the problems.

Increasing the app space would not cause greater harm. All the modern smart phones running Android, Droid X, Droid 2, EVO, Incredible, Samsung Galaxy S phones ALL have this set up that way. Simply to address internal storage issues and giving the user the flexibility to install what they want and NOT have to micro manage their device. So please before you speak or even pretend to know what you are talking about read a few books on Android development and how it works. I am tired of people making excuses for Archos and their poor decision. This can be rectified quite easily and would take no more than a new firmware with the proper partitioning and a full system wipe.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:03 pm 
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Darkseider wrote:
@Macomoneta

You seriously you just don't get it.


Apparently not. I have about 60 apps installed. I used to have 38MB of free app space. As I've updated my apps (which now list SD support in their changelog), I now have 117MB of free app space. I am clueless, and you are a mad genius. I could list my r├®sum├®, but I'm sure it would pale before your accomplishments.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:12 pm 
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macemoneta wrote:
Darkseider wrote:
@Macomoneta

You seriously you just don't get it.


Apparently not. I have about 60 apps installed. I used to have 38MB of free app space. As I've updated my apps (which now list SD support in their changelog), I now have 117MB of free app space. I am clueless, and you are a mad genius. I could list my r├®sum├®, but I'm sure it would pale before your accomplishments.


OK. You have 60 apps installed and have 117 meg free and you consider that acceptable? So now lets do some math, shall we? 299 - 117 = 182. 182 / 60 = 3. So even though you have moved those apps to SD an average of 3 meg per application, whether it be Dalvik cache or application cache resides in your 300 meg partition. So even though most of those apps are UNDER 2 meg they still use 3 meg after moved to SD. Do you see the problem here? This needs to be addressed so that in the very near future when larger applications are released for TABLETS with more features we can actually use them or for that matter more of them, without fear of running out of space.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:25 pm 
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Darkseider wrote:
Do you see the problem here? This needs to be addressed so that in the very near future when larger applications are released for TABLETS with more features we can actually use them or for that matter more of them, without fear of running out of space.


As I keep saying, I do not see a problem. More features does not directly translate to larger applications, unless you are assuming no improvement to existing code, as Bill Atkinson famously pointed out.

Code will always expand to fill available resource, if all you do is write bad code. I prefer to reward those developers that go from 30MB of app space to 2MB of app space. You prefer those that maximally use resources. We will never agree on that issue.

I don't need more than the 60 apps I have installed, and that already puts me in a 'power user' category. To me, I have 117MB of wasted space that I could use for a TV show, some mp3s or a load of ebooks. If the platform doesn't meet your needs, buy a different platform.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:35 pm 
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macemoneta wrote:
Darkseider wrote:
Do you see the problem here? This needs to be addressed so that in the very near future when larger applications are released for TABLETS with more features we can actually use them or for that matter more of them, without fear of running out of space.


As I keep saying, I do not see a problem. More features does not directly translate to larger applications, unless you are assuming no improvement to existing code, as Bill Atkinson famously pointed out.

Code will always expand to fill available resource, if all you do is write bad code. I prefer to reward those developers that go from 30MB of app space to 2MB of app space. You prefer those that maximally use resources. We will never agree on that issue.

I don't need more than the 60 apps I have installed, and that already puts me in a 'power user' category. To me, I have 117MB of wasted space that I could use for a TV show, some mp3s or a load of ebooks. If the platform doesn't meet your needs, buy a different platform.


OK. It has NOTHING to do with good code, bad code, any code. It has to do with how Android works. Android uses a JIT (Just In Time) compiler known as DALVIK. This compiler profiles EVERY freakin app and creates it cache. This cache is then stored in the /data directory. The LARGER the app and the more features it has, regardless of how well the code is written, the Dalvik cache size will increase. This is the nature of Android and how it works. Plain and simple. You could be the best coder in the world and it will still do this. So again. It's not how clean it is written but what it is written to do. The more it does and the larger the base application regardless of how well it is written the Dalvik cache will increase in size proportionately.

As for your "wasted space" this is why Android allows the use of SD Cards for storage. Unlike iOS we are allowed to INCREASE our devices storage for media as we see fit. Google recognized that we are big boys and let use play with our toys. So if anyone needs to switch platforms I suggest you switch to iOS and leave Android to those of us who know what the hell we are talking about.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:37 pm 
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It is what it is. For whatever reason (I'm sure they had a logical business reason), Archos decided not to allocate more space to apps. I agree that I would have preferred for Archos to allocate more space for apps and would not complain if a future firmware or some other process allowed such an allocation. However, I purchased the device knowing it's possible limitations because I wanted some of the other benefits that the Archos device offered over the limited competition and because there are going to be a whole bunch of tablets in the next six months and I will probably want a new toy. In spite of all my searches for other devices, the Archos came closest to what I was looking for at a price that I won't feel so bad if I buy another device in the next 6 months and sell this one.

More than likely Archos is not going to change the apps allocation. At this point, for those of you running out of app space, if you are still within your return period, you may want to consider returning your device and getting another device that gives you the apps space that you want. You can probably also sell it on ebay for close to what you paid for it since there is a shortage of devices right now.


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