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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:38 am 
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I guess that would depend on just how much trouble he might get in for "leaking" the info. I'm not saying its true... I have no idea, but I can see why he/she whomever might not be able to get more pics/video, or may not even be able to respond without being caught, or without Archos finding out who it is by reading the info given.


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:25 am 
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yakman wrote:
Looks real to me. The reflection looks right and everything.


And? I can easily get a screenshot of Android from the Android web site, display it on the Archos using the photo viewer, and take a picture of it. It would take more than that to convince me.


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:43 pm 
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ahh I see what you mean. I thought the consensus was that it was just a photoshop or something.

I guess we will just have to wait and see.


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:41 pm 
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Charbax wrote:
thedo666 wrote:
Android is just Linux. So is the Archos. And I'd see Archos restricting access to any 3rd party apps that conflict with things they sell - they wouldnt thing it was great of say VLC was ported and could play all the files they are charging you to play (h264, vob, etc).


You obviously don't know how Android works. Nobody can create a VLC Android application. Android applications are just using some type of Java, that's pretty basic and secure, but still can hook up to basic features of the device such as connectivity, storage, media player, audio input/output, video input/output, camera, gps, electronic compass, gyroscope and other such hardware options. In a way basic Widgets can't really do. But still, nobody is going to program a VLC type of application to hack video codecs using Android, that's not what Android is for.

Android is for social networking, instant messaging, location based services and other location and Internet based tools such as Shopping assisting to help you make better choices when you go shopping, help you make better choices when you go out, let you buy public transportation tickets, cinema tickets, lets you replace your credit card with your Android device and more things like that.


Oh Charbax, I sometimes wonder if you realise what a fool you come off as!

Before I tear your analysis apart here is the basis of my opinion
1: I Recently attended the recent Google Developer day in London where I used Android
2: The company I work for has had Android Engineers in to speak to our developers (including myself) for feedback on the SDK and other features, as well as for helping us develop Android code in test environments as I expect Google would love to have a branded application on their system from our company.
3: I'm a software engineer who develops primarily in MS .NET, but have worked professionally in C, C++, C#, Java, Delphi, SQL Server, Oracle, and a long time ago Assembly.

So Ive played with the SDK, talked to the developers of Android, and used it on a working system for a limited time.

So believe me when I say - the SDK can be used for almost anything - including a VLC type port. The OS allows for direct file access, direct screen access, and VLC is open source (as is ffmpeg which VLC uses for decoding) its not unrealistic to assume that a cunning developer could convert the C based code to Android. Android is a full OS and not just some place to host widgets. One of the reason (some) people are getting excited is that the Java (its not *technically* Java, but it is...) runtime is supposedly super optimized and allows for a lot of access to the OS. To put into perspective VLC has been ported to other mobile OSs (I had it for a WM5 mbile phone some years ago), so its certainly a possibility. And one which I doubt Archos would relish........

Now please please please Charbax - you've already lost virtually all my respect due to your random nonsense about USB this and Android that. Please stop with your wild rumours and misinformation before more of your members defect to the unofgadgets website, which is so far a much more informed place to discuss Archos products.........

Not sure why - but it appears Charbax has it in for UN of Gadgets.com he changed the reference to SybianSucks?


Last edited by thedo666 on Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:17 pm 
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I should also point out (in the interest of being honest) that I havent developed for Android - just had use of it, and in depth conversations with the developers (in-house and Google).

N


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:29 pm 
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thedo666 wrote:
I should also point out (in the interest of being honest) that I havent developed for Android - just had use of it, and in depth conversations with the developers (in-house and Google).

N


I believe you are a developper and that you spoke with Google Android developpers, but you are mixing things up. The fact that Android is open source and that you can customize the OS as you want before you install it on YOUR OWN hardware design, does not mean consumers and third party developpers can change the OS on for example the T-Mobile G1 or other Android devices that will come.

Sure some hackers might find a way to jailbreak T-Mobile's G1, but in practice, it is only T-Mobile that can update the actual firmware that decides how the third party applications interact with their hardware components. Thus if T-Mobile wants to, they can control which applications may use audio input and output to prevent people from using unauthorized VOIP applications for example.

Anyways you can't just install your own Android distribution on the T-Mobile G1, you can install basic Java apps on it, still powerful Java apps but it remains on the top layer of the device.

But the fact remains developping third party applications and mods for Android is not controlled by Google so you can release your VOIP, VLC mods, and whatever you want on the Android apps marketplace, and so if T-Mobile wants to block your app, perhaps Sprint doesn't block it, or some other manufacturer won't block anything, and thus Google's bet is that there will always be one more open carrier in each market thus pulling the other carriers in the right direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:51 am 
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that pic is definitely fake but we can dream cant we


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:57 am 
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Charbax wrote:
thedo666 wrote:
I should also point out (in the interest of being honest) that I havent developed for Android - just had use of it, and in depth conversations with the developers (in-house and Google).

N


I believe you are a developper and that you spoke with Google Android developpers, but you are mixing things up. The fact that Android is open source and that you can customize the OS as you want before you install it on YOUR OWN hardware design, does not mean consumers and third party developpers can change the OS on for example the T-Mobile G1 or other Android devices that will come.

Sure some hackers might find a way to jailbreak T-Mobile's G1, but in practice, it is only T-Mobile that can update the actual firmware that decides how the third party applications interact with their hardware components. Thus if T-Mobile wants to, they can control which applications may use audio input and output to prevent people from using unauthorized VOIP applications for example.

Anyways you can't just install your own Android distribution on the T-Mobile G1, you can install basic Java apps on it, still powerful Java apps but it remains on the top layer of the device.

But the fact remains developping third party applications and mods for Android is not controlled by Google so you can release your VOIP, VLC mods, and whatever you want on the Android apps marketplace, and so if T-Mobile wants to block your app, perhaps Sprint doesn't block it, or some other manufacturer won't block anything, and thus Google's bet is that there will always be one more open carrier in each market thus pulling the other carriers in the right direction.


Nonsense. Google have already demoed 3D apps running on Java which are designed to be cross-handset compatible. The hard part of video rendering is the decoding, not the actual blitting to screen, and the VM isn not crippled in any way that the developer cant do things like video de-compression on the fly.

Noone is talking about installing your own Android OS on the Archos or any other device. The BIG selling point of the Android is that it is an open DEVELOPER oriented platform (which Google are hoping will bring lots of apps to help drive it as a CONSUMER friendly device). I could buy an Androind phone, and install anythign on - its not a closed platform where everything has to come from 1 place (like the iPhone, where everything must come through the app store). Now its feasible that T-Mobile could maintain a blacklist of applications, but its not a very flexible way of doing things - T-Mobile might ban Skype, but who knows yet if a simple app rename would circumvent that? The point of Android is that its open -and I dont mean open source. Its open for Developers to freely create for, its free for vendors to customize and put on their handsets, and its free for the consumer (ie no "windows-tax", like cost). If ANYONE starts to sell Android devices that close that open-ness then they will simply stay away from the most closed versions and opt for the open ones. If Archos were to look at Android but be considering limiting what can run I'd say dont bother - as I stated Android is just a linux based OS (whcih they already have) and theyd be better releasing their own SDK which enforces their limitations as opposed to trying to customise the OS to do that for them.......


Neil


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:18 am 
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It is obviously fake and just a picture. That exact image is the standard for the android home interface. You see that same photo everywhere.

I would love to have android os on the archos but its a pipedream.


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:46 pm 
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Charbax wrote:
I believe you are a developper and that you spoke with Google Android developpers, but you are mixing things up. The fact that Android is open source and that you can customize the OS as you want before you install it on YOUR OWN hardware design, does not mean consumers and third party developpers can change the OS on for example the T-Mobile G1 or other Android devices that will come.

Sure some hackers might find a way to jailbreak T-Mobile's G1, but in practice, it is only T-Mobile that can update the actual firmware that decides how the third party applications interact with their hardware components. Thus if T-Mobile wants to, they can control which applications may use audio input and output to prevent people from using unauthorized VOIP applications for example.


Nope, you only need the right tools to update a firmware to your own compiled version. Has been done on Windows Mobile smartphones for many years now - check out http://forum.xda-developers.com/ for numerous 'cooked' ROMS for WM devices (mostly those by HTC who build the G1 - it already has its own forum on there with eager hands waiting to 'cook' their own ROMS for it)

They are already looking at doing Android ports for current WM smartphones. If someone had the inclination then they could do the same for the Archos 5/7.


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:55 pm 
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thedo666 wrote:
The BIG selling point of the Android is that it is an open DEVELOPER oriented platform


This does not mean developpers can install c++ applications on it like VLC, no way. Stop keep saying that, you know you are wrong.

Codecs will have to be provided by T-Mobile, the core media player functionality has to come from T-Mobile or from HTC and is provided using an Android standard that is kind of like a basic API calls from the Android Java based applications.

Source code of Android is open so you can develop VLC or whatever for Android and release that software on your website, but you as a simple developper are not necesarilly getting access to T-Mobile and HTC's hardware specifications, proprietary drivers or anything like that. So don't count on any help making your VLC or Mplayer for it.

And that distribution will only be on YOUR website or the code.google.com portal, this does in no way mean that T-Mobile or HTC will let anyone install so-called cooked distributions on their devices. Cryptographically signing the firmware is a basic thing that most likely most Android hardware providers are going to do.

Anyways, you keep arguing people are going to pirate codecs for Android, just stop it, you know that's not going to be possible.

People might program som Qik.com like camcorder application that takes frames from the photo camera and turns it into really low quality videos, which might be streamed live on the Internet and stuff like that. But don't count on any usable video codecs decode or encode that is not specifically provided by the manufacturer and the carrier and which codecs have legally been paid for.


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:45 pm 
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Charbax wrote:
The BIG selling point of the Android is that it is an open DEVELOPER oriented platform

This does not mean developpers can install c++ applications on it like VLC, no way. Stop keep saying that, you know you are wrong.


When did I EVER say that a C++ app would work? I said it could be ported to Java. And I only said a VLC kind of app. If you cant read then I'm afraid thats your issue......

Charbax wrote:
Codecs will have to be provided by T-Mobile, the core media player functionality has to come from T-Mobile or from HTC and is provided using an Android standard that is kind of like a basic API calls from the Android Java based applications.

Source code of Android is open so you can develop VLC or whatever for Android and release that software on your website, but you as a simple developper are not necesarilly getting access to T-Mobile and HTC's hardware specifications, proprietary drivers or anything like that. So don't count on any help making your VLC or Mplayer for it.


I'm not talking about modifying the OS. Never once mentioned it. Once again, you cant read and are assuming something completely wrong. Android is a platform, and 99.9% of developers will be happy to use an official google distro, and not attempt to modify it. In fact Google don expect much external modification from the open source community, as the project is so damn big. The Java runtime on Android is pretty damn powerful, and could easily run a media player. The APIs are already out there for audio and direct screen access. The company I work for will most likely be working on something heavily video oriented (and trust me its something a lot of people on this forum would use - if you'd like to know where I work PM me and I'll give you my work email address so you will know I'm serious - I wont give it out on the board where I work as I dont work on the team that will get the requests, and dont want to end up a proxy between this forum and that team).

Charbax wrote:
Anyways, you keep arguing people are going to pirate codecs for Android, just stop it, you know that's not going to be possible.


(As an example - I'm AGAIN not suggesting VLC will run as-is on Android) VLC supports all the codecs the 5 does (+more) and is free. The code for decoding these videos is out there, open source and available for anybody to PORT to ANY platform IF THEY WANT TO. My EEE can decode 720p video purely on the CPU, and you keep saying how te ARM is faster. So you do the maths? And guess what - no pirating involved.

Now my original point was not that VLC is coming to Android - just that its an example of a FREE app thats possible to PORT to Java (as the source is out there, and free), that would compete with a non-free plugin from Archos. Thus Archos supporting an Open OS with no financial benefit (and the POTENTIAL for financial harm) is a pipe dream.

However, like I also said

Android wont be coming to a 5 (or 7) near you. So YOU stop it with your bollocks. And Android is a UI nightmare - our UXD team looked at it and wanted to have a heart attack. Its not a user friendly experience. Why people are so excited about it is based purely on the G-word in front of the word Android. If it was Microsoft you'd all be groaning, even if it was exactly the same.

Neil


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:09 am 
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thedo666 wrote:
VLC supports all the codecs the 5 does (+more) and is free. The code for decoding these videos is out there, open source and available for anybody to PORT to ANY platform IF THEY WANT TO. My EEE can decode 720p video purely on the CPU, and you keep saying how te ARM is faster. So you do the maths?


You claim you are working in the industry of video codecs yet you don't know that Intel netbooks decode video codecs using a DSP technology they call poulsbo? It takes over any codec decoding work from the main X86 cpu automatically. Intel DOES pay for codecs when you buy a netbook, probably one of the reasons netbooks in average cost $400.

thedo666 wrote:
VLC supports all the codecs the 5 does (+more) and is free.


It won't support a thing if the hardware doesn't have DSP acceleration of all codecs decoding work. You will barely have DVD resolution support without it.

thedo666 wrote:
And guess what - no pirating involved.


Guess what, in the USA, EU, United Kingdom, Australia in fact, VLC decoding codecs in a unlicenced fashion is considered piracy unless you paid for codecs with your hardware or with your OS (Microsoft sometimes includes several codecs in certain versions of Windows Vista).

In fact, codec licences have different pricing depending on the hardware they are decoded on, depending on the quality they are displayable at, screen size, how important of a part of the product it is. All negotiable with the codec licence holder consortiums. Mpeg-4 has a consortium of companies that want to get paid for every product, so does Mpeg-2, Mp3, H264, AAC, AC3.. And on top of that, certain companies own proprietary patented rights in DSP decoding technologies, so you have to pay them as well for their software to decode codecs using a DSP.

If your company plans on making money pirating codecs on ARM for Android, I say very good luck with that (other then it being pretty much impossible). Have fun in jail. I am sure your Archos 5 will be very useful for you in there.


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 Post subject: Re: Android
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:37 am 
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VLC (and ffmpeg) use no DSP tech. Its pure c/c++ for portability, so doesnt use anything more than CPU for decoding and DirectX for outputting (or open GL depending on your rendering options). Directshow may use DSP technologies - but guess what - no directshow in VLC. If you can find any reference to DSP processors in the VLC source, please let me know.......

Plus I never said we were working on a media player to play a variety of formats, and we in fact have our own scalable codec anyway (dont know if we'd use that yet as I'm not even sure if the project will go ahead as I'm not on that team) so who knows i we'd even use a 3rd party one? I dont and I work there, so you definitley dont.

You have an obsession with DSPs, which is fine, but DSPs are primarily used to accelerate a feature the CPU is not up to. Coding for DSPs requires an SDK for that DSP and is a specialist area (I mean what task is a quad core NOT up to these days? High speed Graphics rendering, and for that we used GPUs (which is a form of DSP!)).

And Intel pay for the codecs? Er - yeah. In the case of patented codecs its usually the OS vendor (MS provide the mp3 license for windows for example, note you couldnt play DVDs on XP (without paying for the DirectShow filter), but they include the licence in Vista). Now VLC may be of questionable legality (in your eyes), but clearly noones touched them legally, so theres no reason to expect a PORT to Android would get any heat. Not that I'm suggesting a port will happen. Nor am I suggesting Android will come to the 5. Its all in Charbax' head.


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