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 Post subject: HP 210 Enterprise
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:15 pm 
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Forget the thread about expensive Sony's. Just when you thought the pure PocketPC concept was dead HP surprises us all by releasing a new series - the iPaq 210. Brief spec:

Windows Mobile 6
4" 640x480 VGA screen. Transflective so you will be able to view it in sunlight.
Completely transparent touchscreen membrane.
Latest generation 624MHz PXA310 ARM based CPU. Plenty of grunt and hardware video acceleration.
2200mAh battery. Should be good for at least 6 hours. 4400mAh battery available.
Wifi with WPA2.
Bluetooth 2.0 with EDR.
SDHC slot. Nice as I have an 8GB card.
Compact Flash Slot. Even nicer as I have a 16GB one of these as well! Gives me 24GB of storage. More than enough.
Bucket loads of apps out there. e.g. TCMP which gives Divx, OGG, Flac, AAC etc playback. Games, astronomy apps, ewallets, Opera, email, ebooks etc etc
Media Player 11 for WMV.
Skype.
Messenging.
Software SDK available.
Standard mini-usb for charge and transfer. USB host facility.
Stylus storage slot.
Exactly the same size and weight as a 605.
Looks quite nice too!

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm ... 44499.html

Now the best bit - Only £225 inc VAT. Got one on order straight away!

Oh, and you can have a smartphone version as well if you want.


Last edited by mitchelln on Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:14 pm 
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This may put PocketPCs back on the map again. It's slated to sell in the US for $450! Impressive specs. HP is saying they'll have a keyboard for it that's only 1/2 inch thick when folded. I'd like that for my Everun.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:09 am 
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It's due to arrive next week. I'll post my impressions then, particularly around video playback performance. It's getting good reviews on the tech sites.


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 Post subject: HP 210
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:21 pm 
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will it play divx files?


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 Post subject: Re: HP 210
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:24 pm 
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vkapl wrote:
will it play divx files?


Does Windows?

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 Post subject: Re: HP 210
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:22 pm 
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vkapl wrote:
will it play divx files?

Yes, it will play divx as well as just about every other audio and video format out there. The player I use on my current device is very nice actually. Fully skinnable and slick interface.
The question will be how effective the video acceleration is. Hopefully I can answer that next week!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:34 pm 
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Oh, I forgot to mention. The Windows Mobile platform now has super optimised Adobe Flash support. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:57 am 
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More than double the price of Archos 605 WiFi, among other things, this sucks. PDA is a market in decline cause nobody cares about office apps on a 4" screen, PMP is a market that is soaring cause people want their multimedia in the pocket. At least the size of the market that are interested in Multimedia support is much larger then the market of people who care about using calendar and stylesheets.

I only would like to see these transflective screens how they really look and to know how they are made compared to the way the OLPC screen works in sunlight mode.

mitchelln wrote:
Oh, I forgot to mention. The Windows Mobile platform now has super optimised Adobe Flash support. :)


Show it playing Youtube. I guess since they don't talk about it, it won't support that kind of Adobe Flash, which is really the kind that matters most.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:23 am 
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UK price is £225. 4GB 605 with necessary plug-ins to make it equivalent is £210.
HP must believe there life in the platform to significantly invest like this. This is their first PPC release for well over 2 years. Personally I'm very surprised, but delighted. The price is certainly a breakthrough in this area. These things traditionally retail around the £350 mark when first released.

My current Fujitsu 720 has a transflective screen. It's outdoor performance is great. You don't even need the backlight on. I'm expecting the HP to be similar.

Check out Adobe's site regarding the brand new Flash Lite product (announced on the 1st of October). Supports FLV. I guess the explosion in Smart Phone users wanting to show their mates YouTube videos in the pub has convinced them to do things properly.

Suckiness to be evaluated next week. I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised by it's video performance (The PXA310's spec is very impressive), but I won't 2nd guess that without actually seeing it run. I don't care about mobile office apps either. Mind you, I've ordered it for it's Ogg playback, eBook reading and games capability alone. Oh and the full on Bluetooth 2.0 audio, WPA 2, Compact Flash slot in addition to SDHC and removable battery will be cool as well.


Last edited by mitchelln on Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:46 am 
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I'm kinda interested.. 8) .Keep us updated,thanks.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:37 am 
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It's good to see the iPaq just for the fact that PDAs have not been forgotten. This new one, plus the new N810, new Fujitsu 1610, the HTC Shift, and of course the Everun and Samsung Q1 show that the PDA-UMPC devices are alive and well, thank you very much.

It will be interesting to see what effect the Apple iPhone SDK has. They'll be selling another million of those I'm sure.

I find myself reaching more and more for the Everun as my device of first choice, even passing on my desktop at times. I'm sure the iPaq will do the same for you. It's just really convenient to be anywhere and have the Everun handy. I can see the iPaq doing many of the same chores: pulling up needed Office apps, inking notes, GPS, music, stylus right on board, videos, play anything in any format, etc.

Looking forward to your update on its suckiness. ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:55 am 
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The only problem with the Apple SDK is that you have to get your application digitally signed by Apple or it won't install. The signing isn't going to be cheap either. I've heard it's around $800 a pop.
Letting your customers and 3rd party vendors add value to your platform is the way forward though. Closed platforms are going to face an increasingly tough time.


Last edited by mitchelln on Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:08 pm 
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Whoa! $800???? But still, they'll be pulling in an entirely different crowd with the SDK. Not your average Apple lemmings, but Apple geek lemmings. So I guess I'll have to reduce my estimate from one million to perhaps 500,000. It's not so much the sales numbers as it is, as you say, opening it up to consumers and vendors, even at this price. I'm interested to see if this is somehow linked to Leopard. The timing would lead me to think so. Let's see if some other manufacturer that we know and love can see the handwriting on the wall as to a user friendly SDK.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:46 am 
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mitchelln wrote:
UK price is £225. 4GB 605 with necessary plug-ins to make it equivalent is £210.


Why do you keep bringing back the same BS argument?

Archos 605 WiFi 4GB is 130£. One-hundred-and-thirty-pounds including the EU-type taxes.

That's about half the price of this HP PDA that has less storage. For the price of this HP PDA (£260+) you can get the 605 WiFi with 160GB of storage.

Archos plugins do more than this PDA. Show me this PDA supporting full screen Flash video streaming, Mpeg2 DVD rips in .vob format, DVD resolution h264 video at full bitrates.

And again only less then half of the mainstream consumers need those codecs, so why doesn't Helwett Packard offer those codecs as optionnal plugins so that core users have the option to buy the basic device for cheaper?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:26 am 
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Charbax wrote:
mitchelln wrote:
UK price is £225. 4GB 605 with necessary plug-ins to make it equivalent is £210.


Why do you keep bringing back the same BS argument?

Archos 605 WiFi 4GB is 130£. One-hundred-and-thirty-pounds including the EU-type taxes.

That's about half the price of this HP PDA that has less storage. For the price of this HP PDA (£260+) you can get the 605 WiFi with 160GB of storage.

Archos plugins do more than this PDA. Show me this PDA supporting full screen Flash video streaming, Mpeg2 DVD rips in .vob format, DVD resolution h264 video at full bitrates.


http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Qu ... ationKey=0
Dabs are the cheapest supplier in the UK. You're lucky today because they have dropped slightly from £149. Add on postage though. Then you need these:
http://www.archos.com/store/plugsearch_ ... gb&lang=en

So, that makes £206 at current exchange rates. No magic here. Slightly cheaper, but certainly not twice the price you originally claimed. The HP is currently £223 at Dabs. This is a remarkable price considering the technology in this thing.
The 160GB 605 is £292 + delivery
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Qu ... ationKey=0
and again you'll need the plug-ins. So you're looking around £340.

No doubt you'll fiddle and spin this to shift this by a few pounds and also use the Bloomberg banking euro rate rather than the valid tourist rate, but you won't make much difference. The pricing is on a par no matter how you twist it.

Charbax wrote:
And again only less then half of the mainstream consumers need those codecs, so why doesn't Helwett Packard offer those codecs as optionnal plugins so that core users have the option to buy the basic device for cheaper?

Oh dear. You really don't get this do you? HP just ship their utilities and what they get from Microsoft out the box. So that's WMV,WMA, MP3. Everything else a user desires can be downloaded and installed by the user. That's the beauty of an open platform. There are free players for the Pocket PC that will play all the formats you need. You clearly haven't checked out the Adobe site re. Flash support either.

Now it is my turn to compare. Fair's fair after all.
Can you read proper ebooks on the 605? No.
Can you play games on the 605?. No
Can you download thousands of 3rd party apps for the 605? No.
Can you upgrade Opera without being at the mercy of an Archos firmware upgrade decision? No.
Can you connect bluetooth peripherals to the 605? No.
Does the 605 have GPS mapping software available (I forgot I've got this on my PPC)? No.
Has the 605 got instant messenging? No.
Has the 605 got Skype? No.
Does the 605 play Ogg, Flac files? No.
Can you sync all your contact details with your Windows/Linux PC? No.
Can you sync your task lists, notes, email etc with your Windows/Linux PC? No.
Can you securely store all your PIN numbers and passwords to save you remembering them all? No.
Does the 605 have Adobe Flash Lite (this is so much faster than the ported full plug-in)? No.
Can you view the 605's screen in strong daylight? No.
Can you plug-in just a standard USB cable to a 605 to sync/charge? No.
Has the 605 got a Compact Flash slot for data and peripherals? No.
Has the 605 got SDIO to support peripherals? No.
Can you use your 605 as a programmable remote control? No.
Can the 605's battery be easily replaced? No.
Does the 605 have a stylus slot? No.
Is there a SDK available from Archos? No.
Does Archos provide great customer service? Er. No.

You are so completely blinkered that you have missed the big story here. HP has clearly decided to move much more heavily into the mobile market. This new range of theirs is a bolt out of the blue. They clearly want a piece of the action. HP are absolutely huge and can throw millions of R&D dollars at this. They are one of the largest electronics companies in the world. You want a media capable PDA? - they've got one. Want a 3G Smartphone with VoIP, PDA and media functionality? - they've now got one. Want a GPS/media device? - they've now got one. This is a huge shift of thinking. If they decide to combine the 214 with the 314 then they will sell them by the bucket load (this would be my perfect device). Especially in the US where Archos are currently struggling. Americans will always buy American products whenever possible.

No matter how you scream, kick and spin it Charbax, the world is catching up on Archos fast. The points you have raised in response to my post are trivial at best.
Why can't you for once just say "That looks like a nice device. Let us know how you get on with it"?


Last edited by mitchelln on Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 am 
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PDAs have no mass market future. Simply cause they are the wrong OS, the wrong hardware and the wrong use.

You might have a few profetionnals who want to take their business contacts and stylesheets with them. But those business customers have been moving over to getting Blackberries and Smartphones instead.

Archos PMP is adressing the demand of the mass market consumer who wants to take his Daily Show episodes with him on the train, watch stupid dog clips among the million clips on Youtube, take hours of daily DVR recordings on the bus, rip the netflix movies instantly and return them for new DVDs to easilly watch the ripped movies on the TV or on the bus later, carry the whole music collection and up to a hundred or two hundred movies from the BitTorrent download collection, automatically synch in any number of video podcasts in the morning to watch on the subway, backup pictures from the digital cameras limited flash memory cards, get access to thousands of movies over Video-On-Demand services directly on the TV or on-the-go streaming from any hotspot and much more.

YOUR PDA DOES NONE OF THAT.

And stop f*kin bugging me about your made up bundle prices. QVC had the 605 WiFi 160GB for 298£ with DVR Station, plugins and battery dock included recently.

605 WiFi 4GB is 100£ in the USA and 130£ in Europe.

Your PDA is +400$ in the USA thus double the price.

Your PDA is targeting a shrinking market with smartphones that do the same calendar and office tasks, Archos PMPs are targeting a booming market with no competitors other then wannabe iPhonesk smartphones, underperforming Nokia tablets, ridiculous Microsoft Zunes, stale Sony PSPs and slow to catch up Korean PMPs that never make it outside of the Korean market.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:33 am 
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Here we go again. Same old same old. If you think it's possible to undercut Dabs (the largest supplier in the UK), and dodge import duty and taxes then fine. Even if you could a 10 second check on Amazon.com results in this:
http://www.amazon.com/ARCHOS-605-4GB-Fl ... 498&sr=8-5
and
[url=http://www.amazon.com/Archos-Wi-Fi-Portable-Media-Player/dp/B000S5UY2G/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-3622627-8678301?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1192789498&sr=8-2]http://www.amazon.com/Archos-Wi-Fi-Portable-Media-Player/dp/B000S5UY2G/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-3622627-8678301?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1192789498&
sr=8-2[/url]

So that's $199 for the 4GB 605 and $399 for the 160GB one. Then you need the plug-ins or you can't browse the web and view content. This is an inescapable fact. Where on earth you get the $100 figure from I do not know. Plus how the hell you think I can "make up" web links to major suppliers is simply beyond me.

I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your unsubstantiated claims. You clearly can't refute my feature list and I can do all that stuff you've listed within the confines of available storage (for which on the 605 is a price trade off anyway). I'll let forum readers decide based on the hard facts presented. You still can't see that HP are clearly moving into Archos's sector either. Sticking your fingers in your ears and putting on a blindfold isn't going to help.
As has been said numerous times before, if you don't like posts about competing technologies, then remove the Competitor forum.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:45 am 
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Archos 605 WiFi 4GB list price: $199

HP 210 Enterprise list price: $449

End of story there.

And no you don't f*kin need the plugins, more than 50% of people who buy a PMP don't need the plugins.

Lastly, if HP was going for Archos market, they wouldn't have called their PMP-killer "Enterprise".

HP is targeting the Enterprise. And the Enterprise doesn't care much for it since they can get their calendar and office synchronisation apps nearly just as well on a Blackberry or other smartphone. But the Enterprise is a big enough market, especially a market that doesn't mind overpaying for stuff, so HP decided there is some sales still to be made there, even though they clearly know their product concept in itself doesn't have a future.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:51 am 
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Charbax wrote:
wannabe iPhonesk smartphones, underperforming Nokia tablets, ridiculous Microsoft Zunes, stale Sony PSPs and slow to catch up Korean PMPs that never make it outside of the Korean market.


You clearly haven't seen the sales figures for these, especially compared to any Archos out there... the market clearly demands products, NOW, and manufacturers provide... If I can use and buy a good PDA now, for a decent price, I will.

Actually, the way you talk about Archos and the future sounds a lot like Apple - "Here's what we think you need, and everything else is automatically crap".

The difference being - Apple might deliver.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:09 pm 
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Charbax wrote:
And no you don't f*kin need the plugins, more than 50% of people who buy a PMP don't need the plugins.

To do the stuff you have listed then you do need the "f*kin" plug-ins. My argument is that you need to pay extra to get just some of the functionality the HP delivers out of the box. Charging extra for the web browser was a really stupid move (that they are now clearly trying to hide by using virtually unreadable light grey text for the caveats on the sales site). Using proprietary cables in this day and age is stupid. Forcing people to buy a dock because of the slow charging USB is stupid (and then having the bloody cheek to pop up a nag screen suggesting you to buy the dock every single time you plug in even after you've bought one!). All these extras quickly rack up the price. The extra features the HP has (which you are not disputing) make the HP's price very attractive.

ETM wrote:
You clearly haven't seen the sales figures for these, especially compared to any Archos out there... the market clearly demands products, NOW, and manufacturers provide... If I can use and buy a good PDA now, for a decent price, I will.

Yes, I would doubt HP would invest millions on development if they thought they were only going to sell a handful of these things to "a few professionals". Clearly they believe there is a seriously viable market.


Last edited by mitchelln on Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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